Member Discussions

Oh, man.

I cannot *stand* it.

Folks, if you didn't manage to make it to history
classes in school, and lack acquaintance with
current events, then oh PLEASE become familiar
with Wikipedia *at least*.

The Soviet Union did not "win" in Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Soviet_withdrawal_from_Afghanistan

Desert Storm was a real war. Ask the 100,000
Iraqis killed by US arms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Storm#Iraqi_deaths_and_wounded

The US economy is more powerful than EU's. California
*alone* is something like th 8th or 9th largest
economy in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

I'm not even going to get into whose military
is better, US and Israel. What a crock. I'm going to
limit myself to remarking that the recent events in Lebanon
may be of some interest to folks interested in gauging
the invincibility of the IDF.

"i am not sure how far into the Second World war this was"?
Why don't you bother to find out? WW2 started in September
1939. The US joined in December 1941.

How can you not know this?

The Soviets and Americans popped Germany like a zit
in 1945, and it was the methodical destruction of Japan's island
empire by the USMC and the specter of a hail of
American nuclear bombs that forced the Japanese to surrender
unconditionally...NOT british stiff upper lip.

Did the UK hep? Yes, no duh. But it was Stalin's
carpeting Europe with men and tanks, and the
vast American war machine that put an end to the discussion.

You people are going to make me resent the hell out
of you for making me argue Tyche's side.

Pretending the US is weak is beyond incorrect. It's
foolish. As much as I'd like to take issue with
Tyche's ballbreaking, his statements are factually
correct. If you're going to argue with him, please
bother to do homework on what you don't know.

-Crat


(Comment added by cratylus on Mon Jan 1 9:45:17 2007)

As if it weren't bad enough that people's
made-up history dragged me into debating on
Tyche's side, you've made me become part of
the pointless-tangent problem.

DAMN YOU.

Folks, if you didn't manage to make it to history
classes in school, and lack acquaintance with
current events, then oh PLEASE become familiar
with Wikipedia *at least*.

I'm going to pretend I didn't just read that. History class...in school? I'm no history major, never wanted to be, would not care to be, I'm a Computer Science Major, Mathematics Minor, but to suggest that history class was the best place to learn history is laughable. Don't you know everything that can be taught from a viewpoint in the US will be, or that if you look in American history books and other countries histories books of the same incident that ours almost ALWAYS makes us look like the good guys and them like the bad guys, yet it doesn't the way it is taught in their countries.

The point of that statement is that knowledge of
history is something you can avail yourself of
independent of school-learnin'.

So it sounds to me like you're agreeing that
you have responsibility for gathering information
on your own.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/

Tyche's comments were still the typical american attitude.. in your face, we're better then you. Considering, if I am not mistaken, that he was/is fairly high ranking in the US army, I'm not surprised to see him spitting propoganda.

I have no issue with our sothern friends either, I do have some issue with the undertones of the way he stated his point though.

You may have the strongest economy, but you also have one of the largest national debt loads in the world.

You may have one hell of a military, I however see the US typically as war mongers as of late. I don't think that's a bragging point. You really want to be known for the fact your intellegence units screwed up, and have caused a war your likely never going to win? You have what is it now.. over 2,000 corpses on your head, because Bush has a hardon to finish what daddy started, for no other reason really then pride and oil .. and you think this is a good thing? I don't fault the bravery and the commitment of the forces that have died for Bush's little vendetta - but I sure do pity them and thier families.. that's a whole lot of dead son's and daughters.. and really.. for what?

Afghanistan I understood - I agree with even, Iraq has been a complete cluster-f__k. Tell me different if you like, but I think even Tyche will have to admit it shouldn't have happened.

That's as much as I'm willing to wade into that discussion, every nation has its strengths and weaknesses - even the all powerful U S of A.. so lets take the flag wagging nationalism and stuff it, hmm?

-D.

From Macademus:

I hate to burst your bubble, but the USA only Joined in with the Second World war after Pearl Harbour was bombed by the Japanese, i am not sure how far into the Second World war this was!


WWII started Sept 1, 1939 with the invasion of Poland by the Germans. The USA entered WWII Dec 8, 1941 (Dec 8 was the day Congress declared war on Germany, not Dec 7th). The war ended in Europe in June of 1945 (I think), and ending in Asia (in which the only forces that fought were Japan and USA. Allied troops played almost no role in the Asian Front) several months later.

BTW, my stating that Soviets/Aghani regime won was in regards to the troops, etc the USA placed there, then pulled out because they got their arses handed to them.

And as to Iraq Part One, yes, lots of people died...a WAR does not end in 7 days or less, like that did. That was little more than US Government sanctioned massacre. We didn't go there to liberate Kuwait, we went there for OIL and the all mighty $$. Oddly enough, we supposedly went against Iraq in Part 2 to hunt down terrorists, safe guard America, and seek out and destroy weapons of mass destruction. Ummm...let's see, we STILL haven't found Osama, our soldiers are getting killed and OOPS no weapons of mass destruction. Face it, Bush was ticked at OPEC's pricing for oil, and felt he had to safeguard American oil industry and that almighty $$ again.

And the worst part is, we wouldn't even NEED their frucking oil if the damn oil industry would stop lobbying to keep all the other technologies from becoming known, mass produced and *GASP* cheap. Since people like Perot, the Bushes, OPEC, etc would all lose billions of dollars if America moved to cleaner fuels and away from fossil fuels like coal and oil, the US (and other countries) governments are forced to ignore all that wonderful research.

To paraphraze a picture I saw during the election of Bush.... (picture a naked woman with a bald nether region holding a sign with the following slogon): JUST SAY NO TO BUSH!

And considering Bush can barely string two sentences together with any degree of intellect, it REALLY scares me that he has the nuclear codes... What's next? Is this chump gonna invade Krispy Kreme looks for Weapons of Mass Destruction too?

Oh well, this whole subject is like a septic tank which has backed up. Just way too much poop to wade through, and no hope of staying clean.

"BTW, my stating that Soviets/Aghani regime won was in regards to the troops, etc the USA placed there, then pulled out because they got their arses handed to them."

I don't understand this. What year's events are
you referring to?

"And as to Iraq Part One, yes, lots of people died...a WAR does not end in 7 days or less, like that did."

Your opinion is that a conflict lasting 7 days or fewer is
not a war. A longer period of conflict is not a
prerequisite I'm aware of from any dictionary or
serious source of information on the subject.
Your opinion is in flat contradiction to consensus.

As damning to your argument as that fact alone
might be, is that Desert Storm was a conflict that
involved much more than 7 days of playing cards in
the desert. Members of the TV watching audience got
to imagine they were watching a video game, but I
can assure you things weren't just black-and-white
apachevision.

Desert Storm appeared to a lot of people like a
costless win because it was a modern war conducted
correctly. It sure as hell wasn't perfect, but the
planning, execution, and follow-through were
sufficiently effective and advanced that it was
indistinguishable from magic to civilian eyes back home.

But I can tell you as a guy who was there, just
because you didn't know it was a real war doesn't
mean it wasn't, and your continuing justifications
do nothing but discredit you.

Was it less monumental than ww2? Was it less of
a meatgrinder than Iraq? Of course. But your criterion
for calling something a war is wrong. And your
willingness to fire from the hip about it does
nothing but cast you in a poor light indeed.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

You're correct as usual Crat. I've just been a little ticked off at some of the comments made by others expounding on the USA's glories and acting like the US is some kind of infallible, intelligent superpower. Yeah, we've got a great army and are rich, etc. We also have a boatload of problems HERE that we should be taking care of instead of sending off billions to help others, or invading other countries and shoving our political philosophies down other countries' throats.

--snipped fictive history that has already been addressed--
At least you found the right forum for posting comedy. My sides still hurt from the France won WWII zinger. Good one.

...I've BEEN homeless and I've tried to go on Welfare. I was offered $147 per month for housing and $35 in food stamps. This was in 1993. Why was I homeless? Because I got into an argument with my mother and was thrown out of the house. I was all of 22 yrs old and the wonderful US govt wouldn't do a damn thing.

LOL Waah! Waah! In case you haven't figured it out yet, you are a bleeding socialist/marxist/communist. You want the government to forcibly appropriate Tyche's hard-worked for and honestly won wealth and property by threat of imprisonment, fine and forfeiture in order to redistribute it to you in order to fund your miserable lazy parasitic existence! You actually believe it is your moral right to live as a disgusting parasite turd with Tyche being your unwilling host. Even more repellent, you're even less motivated than a professional thief to take it by force yourself, instead you demand proxies to steal it for you. I'm disgusted. Get your lips off my teats.

Then again, if you had asked me personally to give you shelter and food, no doubt I would have helped you out in some way. Of course the difference between theft and charity probably escapes your kind.

I'm going to counter some of this off-topic inanity and raise you a crazy: The trouble with tribbles is largely in their inability to appreciate cubism. We need more tuna.

There. I'm not sure if that's stupider than a sophomoric political philosophy discussion on a MUD humor board, but I tried.
--matt

We need more tuna.

I do not like your tuna scam.
I do not like it, Sarapis I am.
I will not eat it in a casserole.
I will not share it with a mole.
I will not abide it on a sandwich.
I will not put it on a leaf of spinach.

I will not fund your silly tuna ponzi scam.
I will not fund it, Sarapis I am.

Tyche's hilarious and that is all I have to say.

The trouble with tribbles is largely in their inability to appreciate cubism.

The good thing about tribbles is that William Shatner had a handy supply of toupees on the Star Trek set... just in case of an emergency.

From Tyche:

LOL Waah! Waah! In case you haven't figured it out yet, you are a bleeding socialist/marxist/communist. You want the government to forcibly appropriate Tyche's hard-worked for and honestly won wealth and property by threat of imprisonment, fine and forfeiture in order to redistribute it to you in order to fund your miserable lazy parasitic existence! You actually believe it is your moral right to live as a disgusting parasite turd with Tyche being your unwilling host. Even more repellent, you're even less motivated than a professional thief to take it by force yourself, instead you demand proxies to steal it for you. I'm disgusted. Get your lips off my teats.

Then again, if you had asked me personally to give you shelter and food, no doubt I would have helped you out in some way. Of course the difference between theft and charity probably escapes your kind.


Let's see if I can take these erroneous and rather rude comments and point out the obvious flaws...

1) I'd like to know where you came up with my being a bleeding socialist/marxist/communist? I am a not. I believe in free enterprise and capitalism, that those who work hard get ahead. Those who earn their money should be rewarded with higher pay and a better living condition.

2) Name one place I wrote that someone should forcibly reallocate anyone, let alone your hard earned money, with or without failure to do so being the cause of imprisonment, fine, etc? Last I checked, Welfare and other governmental programs are funded by taxes which every working citizen is required to pay, which I've been paying for 20 years, aside from the months I was unemployed and homeless.

3) When did I ever state the government or anyone else should reallocate someone else's wealth to fund my "parasitic existance"? Last I checked, Tyche, I was not a parasite. I have worked for more than 1/2 of my life, dutifully paid my taxes, worked my way through college, etc. I have also donated, when financially able to, to various charities for cancer research, specifically leukemia and breast cancer, as well as several others. REAL parasitic, aint I?

4) I never stated it was my moral right to live off anyone else's host. And by the way, your constant insults are rather unbecoming behavior for an officer of the US Army, who if I recall, gets their pay, clothing, food, etc by the graces of the taxpayers of the United States. Yes, the military has a job to do, and I applaud each and every member of the military, and thank them for protecting my freedoms and my rights, I'm kind of curious how invading other countries protects my rights and freedoms, but hey, I'm just a stupid civilian, right, Tyche? Or am I just a parasitic turd? *ponder*

5) Who did I demand to steal monies for me? How am I a thief? By requesting the US Government do its JOB, which is to protect its citizens, provide for the ability for their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? Can't quite pursue happiness, and enjoy freedom if you're dead from starvation or exposure can you? How about we stop sending billions of dollars to feed and clothe the hungry and poor in foreign nations and instead spend those billions and billions of dollars feeding and clothing and housing our OWN hungry and poor, and assist them in getting jobs, etc? Which by the way is all I wanted...a place to live and food in my stomach while I found myself a job. I guess you missed that in the post..nothing unusual for you.

6) I couldn't care less if you're disgusted. Considering you apparently can't read and understand English, and assume things that were never written, your feelings of disgust should come from your own reprhensible post and behavior. As to my lips being connected to your teat, sorry, Tyche, but I have a bit more self-respect than to fasten my lips to any part of you. I truly dislike arrogant, self-important know-it-alls who think they're better than just about everyone else. I may be rude, and sometimes shoot my mouth off without thinking, but at least I also have the honor to apologize when I am wrong, and rarely if ever have I gone off as half-cocked as you did in your post.

7) *snip* Then again, if you had asked me personally to give you shelter and food, no doubt I would have helped you out in some way. Of course the difference between theft and charity probably escapes your kind.

Exactly what "kind" would you be referring to? I am an educated, relatively intelligent, hard working, taxpaying US Citizen. I am a husband, stepfather, and prior to my moving and having to shut down my consulting business, an entrepeneur and sole proprietor. I also have quite a listing of computer industry certification, I'm a registered parlimentarian, and various other things. So, which "kind" are you specifying? Oh, and just to make sure you realize this, Tyche, getting on welfare to try to get back on your feet is not theft. Nor is it charity. It is trying to return to being a productive member of society. And for the record: Theft is the taking of something that does not belong to you and appropriating it for yourself or another. This could be something physical, or not such as intellectual property. Charity is the giving of a tangible or intangible thing to another without the expectation of anything in return.

As a side note, Tyche, your personal attacks were unwarranted, erroneous and unfounded. If you had any shred of decency or honor you would apologize. But, I highly doubt you ever will.

As a side note, Tyche, your personal attacks were unwarranted, erroneous and unfounded. If you had any shred of decency or honor you would apologize. But, I highly doubt you ever will.

Tyche apologizing? Kingarthyr you are a funny funny man. And Tyche you don't have to care for our "kind". You may not have aimed the quote at me, but if you deign to talk in a condescending manner to Kingarthyr for being on the Welfare in the past, then I'm sure I would fall into the same category in your pompous view. My parents never married, they were nothing more than friends by the time I was born. My mother frankly was a whore who didn't even know why my biological father was until I was 5 at which point the man she had thought was my father was found to not be after a blood test. She got pregant with me at the age of 18, I was born when she was 19. She made $5 per hour at her first job struggling to be able to put food on the table. She put herself through college and got an Associate's Degree in auto-body repair. I am now 18, in my senior year of High School, and my 8th school. I have not seen my father since I was 6 and his last words were "I could be a regular time of your sons life, I could be a reliable father, I could pay child support, but frankly I won't." Last I knew he was a screwup who worked as a Dish Washer at a restaurant in West Virginia and living off of his wealthy parents who retired from GM. I lived in numerous apartments when I was younger and lived in a trailer park for 4 years of my life. My mother was laid off her job as a Senior Claims Insurance Adjustor by Allstate Insurance with 10 weeks severance pay as of December 31 of 2006, and is now on unemployment. I myself was put in jail last year after being charged with Assault and Battery for defending myself in a fight. When I was younger I ate because of welfare and food stamps. So although the your "kind" comment may have been directed at Kingarthyr and not myself, I take just as much if not more offense to your pompous snooty attitude. Also I would like to say that I don't care for your "type", by that I mean the wealthy pompous type that is privileged and wouldn't understand many of the difficulties life can bring if it bit him in the ass, yet has the audacity to talk down to those that have had struggles in their past and persevered.

Finally. My very own net connection. No more rowdy kids at the cafe, no more nosy neighbors or chatty chicks.

The important part of the comment was the end... "not because it's better, but because a judge has natural biases". Whether or not the rules of this website apply to the US court system is beside the point.

Right, I see. I guess I read a bit too much into that sentense. Nonetheless, I think we'd be far better off without Icculus as moderator. We should be free to say all the muddish things we like - barring that, we should have a moderator who isn't financially dependent on those s/he moderates.
Not that it matters a great deal - I'm just saying it'd be an improvement.

That I hold the same opinion as you, but from a different viewpoint, does not make ma a liar, or a poopyhead.

I'm not sure to what opinion you're referring here, but you're probably right, it doesn't make you a liar.
What makes you a liar is claiming you've never made claims as to the future bahaviour of icculus, when in fact you have made numerous.
You're not a poopyhead as far as I know. Calm down already.

I don't care what rude people think of me.

Interesting angle you have here.
You lie to me, and when I call you on it, you call me rude and say you won't talk with me. Granted, 'liar' isn't a nice thing to call people, but actually being a liar is less nice, wouldn't you say?

Mass

I think we'd be far better off without Icculus as moderator.

You are permitted to have that opinion. I am permitted to have the opinion that I would be better off without you as a member. I only have one suggestion for you if you would like to be able to post without there being a moderator with whom you may disagree with at times. Create your own website and forums and moderate your own site however you wish.

Oh.. my mistake. I didn't realize you were a self admitted hipocrite.

O come on down from that high horse of yours. I can have expectations or standards to icculus that are different from those I have to myself without being a hipocrite. I don't host a website, after all.

I'm not about to justify my parenting tactics to you, we'll simply leave it at - the world isn't fair. Period.

Whoa. Back up a bit here.
You said you taught your kid that fairness doesn't exist in the real world.
Then I argued that fairness does in fact exists, even in the real world.
That you (and others) contrue that to mean that the 'life' and 'world' as a whole is fair, is stretching my words much too far.
There is such a thing a middle road, you know. It might be a tough concept to understand as a Merrycan, but it's not all 'you're either with us, or you're against us'.
Some times life and the world at large is fair, at other times it's not.

For a good example of my 'non-existant' point, please see the case of Steven Truscott, one of the most famous Canadian murder cases.

Whatever 'non-existant' point you're talking about here, it doesn't really prove that the world is wholly unfair that some canadian guy was innocently imprisoned.

Your original argument was sound, your Icculus bashing and other replies have been largely that of a middle school student.

Ah, could be worse ;-)
I don't believe I've ever bashed Icculus (pending definition), but my point of criticism has remained, throughout the thread, that Icculus is a pretty normal human being, and thus cannot be impartial in his moderation of this forum, that he is wrong to have moved into this position of judgment.
This has been my point from the get go - that some replies have been somewhat simplified revisions or exagerrated examples is an unfortunate fact made necessary by my recipient(s).

This is certainly not the first time I've posted venomous replies, I'm sure many can attest to that one.

Perhaps a few can. I still hold that you've changed your tone considerably.

Secondly, as much as you feel it has to do with financial gain, it has much more to do with the fact you are slinging *CENSORED* at my friend, and I don't take well to it.

Yes. You've already made it clear that it's not about money for you.
Again, I have to express wonder at the censored stuff I throw at Icculus. I don't think I've thrown anything that I couldn't reasonably back up.
I think that your strong reactions to this thread is more to do with hitting the mark, than it has to do with unfounded accusations.
Often, truth hurts more than lies.

So your not saying he is biased, and will do more to please sponsorers then regular folks, because they pay him, and he is corrupt, etc?

Yes, in a very vulgar way and exempting 'corrupt', that's what I'm saying. All of it involuntarily.
I'm not saying 'it's all about the money', however. It isn't that hard to understand, really. Try again.

Mass.

I only have one suggestion for you if you would like to be able to post without there being a moderator with whom you may disagree with at times.

This has nothing to do with agreeing with Icculus or not - it's about how everyone should be treated the same.

I am permitted to have the opinion that I would be better off without you as a member.

I'm sorry to hear that. However much I'd like to get on your good side, I'm not going away.

Mass.

Once again, and finally, Massaria, your misinterpretation of my point does not make me a liar.

Not that it matters a great deal - I'm just saying it'd be an improvement.
And I'm saying it's not, right alongside numerous other people. Further, if admittedly, it doesn't matter much, why in the world are you making such a huge deal of of it? If you want to convince someone else, saying "I hold this perspective, but it's not all that important, and if you ask me to explain it a certain way I'm not going to." isn't exactly doing the job.

I think we're all pretty tired of the "Icculus can be, no he can't be" discussion... so if you want to make a new point, I certainly hope you make it soon.

Best of Luck,
-Jess

Massaria: My point of criticism has remained, throughout the thread, that Icculus is a pretty normal human being, and thus cannot be impartial in his moderation of this forum, that he is wrong to have moved into this position of judgment.

Well, if I were moderator, I might let people say things about Calvin that would get TMC sued.

I might let people annoy Matt to the point where he removed his sponsorship.

This is Andrew's site, and that he alone takes responsibility for what is allowed is not "wrong", it's the only way he can sleep at night. The fact that people aren't perfect seems to really bother you, and that lack of reality makes your judgment pretty useless to the rest of us.

My point of criticism has remained, throughout the thread, that Icculus is a pretty normal human being, and thus cannot be impartial in his moderation of this forum, that he is wrong to have moved into this position of judgment.

So it sounds to me like you are stating that because something can be impartial, that means it shouldn't hold a position where it can pass judgement on what is allowed or isn't allowed? If this is the case do you think a computer should decide whether or not someone is guilty of a crime, because both a jury and a judge can be partial and a computer can't? No? I didn't think so. Of course Icculus is partial, I wouldn't want a moderator that wasn't, in fact it's impossible to have a moderator that isn't, the word moderator is based off of the word moderate, a moderator therefore keeps things moderate on a forum or discussion, by controlling what users or participants can or can't post/say.

O come on down from that high horse of yours. I can have expectations or standards to icculus that are different from those I have to myself without being a hipocrite.

Yes you can...having expectations or standards for others but not yourself doesn't make you a hipocrite at all...but it does make you a hypocrite.

Massaria

I don't believe I've ever bashed Icculus (pending definition), but my point of criticism has remained, throughout the thread, that Icculus is a pretty normal human being, and thus cannot be impartial in his moderation of this forum, that he is wrong to have moved into this position of judgment.

Normal or not, biased or not, agree or disagree with him, the point of fact is really very simple here: Icculus owns this site.

He could decide tomorrow that all people with purple pimples on their asses are no longer allowed to post here and there would be nothing in the world you could do about it. So rather than bitch about it, just accept it. He cannot be wrong for "moving into this position of judgment" when he owns the site and has been in that position since the first day it was open.

1) I'd like to know where you came up with my being a bleeding socialist/marxist/communist?
2) Name one place I wrote that someone should forcibly reallocate anyone, let alone your hard earned money, with or without failure to do so being the cause of imprisonment, fine, etc? Last I checked, Welfare and other governmental programs are funded by taxes which every working citizen is required to pay, which I've been paying for 20 years, aside from the months I was unemployed and homeless.
3) When did I ever state the government or anyone else should reallocate someone else's wealth to fund my "parasitic existance"? Last I checked, Tyche, I was not a parasite. I have worked for more than 1/2 of my life, dutifully paid my taxes, worked my way through college, etc.
4) I never stated it was my moral right to live off anyone else's host.

And yet you continue to promote marxism... and demand more redistribution of wealth.
"From each according to their abiity, to each according to their needs." is exactly the right you believe you have:

By requesting the US Government do its JOB, which is to protect its citizens, provide for the ability for their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? Can't quite pursue happiness, and enjoy freedom if you're dead from starvation or exposure can you?

And by the way, your constant insults are rather unbecoming behavior for an officer of the US Army

You have me confused with someone else.

5) Who did I demand to steal monies for me? How am I a thief?
...
Oh, and just to make sure you realize this, Tyche, getting on welfare to try to get back on your feet is not theft. Nor is it charity. It is trying to return to being a productive member of society. And for the record: Theft is the taking of something that does not belong to you and appropriating it for yourself or another. This could be something physical, or not such as intellectual property. Charity is the giving of a tangible or intangible thing to another without the expectation of anything in return.

Welfare is theft.

God, who endows us with life, liberty, property, and the right to pursue happiness, also exhorts individuals to care for the needy, the sick, the homeless, the aged, and those who are otherwise unable to care for themselves.

America's welfare crisis is a government-induced crisis. Government social and cultural policies have undermined the work ethic, even as the government's economic and regulatory policies have undermined the ability of our citizens to obtain work.

Charity, and provision of welfare to those in need, is not a Constitutional responsibility of the federal government. Under no circumstances should the taxpayers of the United States be obligated, under penalty of law through forced taxation, to assume the cost of providing welfare for other citizens. Neither should taxpayers be indentured to subsidize welfare for persons who enter the United States illegally.

The message of Christian charity is fundamentally at odds with the concept of welfare maintenance as a right. In many cases, welfare provisions by the Federal government are not only misdirected, but morally destructive. It is the intended purpose of civil government to safeguard life, liberty and property - not to redistribute wealth. Such redistribution is contrary to the Biblical command against theft.[link]

From across the political and ideological spectrum, there is now almost universal acknowledgement that the American social welfare system has been a failure.

Since the start of the "war on poverty" in 1965, the United States has spent more than $5 trillion trying to ease the plight of the poor. What we have received for this massive investment is -- primarily -- more poverty.

Our welfare system is unfair to everyone: to taxpayers who must pick up the bill for failed programs; to society, whose mediating institutions of community, church and family are increasingly pushed aside; and most of all to the poor themselves, who are trapped in a system that destroys opportunity for themselves and hope for their children.
...
It is time to recognize that welfare cannot be reformed: it should be ended.

We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating AFDC, food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest. Individuals who are unable to fully support themselves and their families through the job market must, once again, learn to rely on supportive family, church, community, or private charity to bridge the gap.[link]

Oppose the Federal Welfare State
The Genesis of Welfare
Is Welfare Unconstitutional?
The Constitution Versus The Modern Welfare State
Not Yours To Give

Tyche, all that drivel is contrary to the Constitution, since the Constitution SEPARATES CHURCH AND STATE. Christian mortal ethics DO NOT have a place in US Govt policy, federal law, etc. Did you somehow neglect to recall that? Last I checked, the Pope, Queen of England, and other Church leaders (since the Queen is technically the head of the Anglican church), nor are the bishops, cardinals, priests, etc of the Christian or Catholic faiths in charge of the government. If they were, Jesus would be in all the classes, I wouldn't have been allowed in public school since I'm not a Christian, etc.

Now, welfare whether you BELIEVE it to be theft or not is really not germane to a damn thing, since YOUR beliefs are NOT US Government policy or law. Your opinions are just that, as are your beliefs. They don't coincide with the laws, policies, Presidential orders, etc of the US Government, State Governments, nor county or local governments. You see, the problem with your beliefs are not that they're your beliefs, but that they are narrowminded, short-sighted, etc.

Your same arguments against taxation to fund welfare, could be used to go against every single solitary thing the government funds, such as education, foreign policy, the US Military, and a whole lot more.

You claim I am a Marxist and advocate the redistribution of wealth. WHERE did I claim that? Re-distribution of wealth would require a raise in taxes, where did I advocate that? Your arguments are worse than flawed, they're foolish drivel. You provide a whole lot of quotes from people, who may be intelligent, but are not policy makers or lawmakers. The one you quoted in your post, sounds like a typical right-wing Christian moralist who thinks the Church should create or run the governmental policies. Sorry, but that goes against the US Constitution. Are you advocating overthrowing the US Government or undermining the US Constitution? Do you find fault with the separation of religion and government?

Are you advocating that the Christian church take over the government? If you are, I'm pretty sure every non-Christian in the United States will have major issue with that, as well as the more moderate Christians who actually believe that everyone in the US doesn't have to believe in the same deities or religious practices, but should all obey the same laws.

Maybe you should re-read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. The Founding Fathers created this country and its system of government to make sure that one type of religion does not persecute or force its beliefs on anyone else. And that is exactly what you are trying to do, or at least advocating. You seem to believe because certain people were born poor or became poor and need a helping hand to return to the workforce and make a better life for themselves and their children are thieves. That is about as asinine a thought as I've EVER heard. Oh, and by the way, Tyche, the people you got the quote from, apparently never read the bible. Because I have and it doesn't say a flippin thing about welfare, or that the nations who have dominion over their citizens shouldn't take care of those citizens. If a nation doesn't care for its citizens, what good is the government of that nation? And how does welfare take away jobs? That is stupid. What takes away jobs from the US is outsourcing those jobs to places like India, so US companies can save a few bucks. Its caused by big companies like Microsoft choking the life out of small businesses, or gobbling up other companies and then dismantling them.

Whether the charity comes from churches, temples, etc or from the government doesn't alter that it is charity..a helping hand. Using your thought processes, when someone becomes unemployed, any unemployment compensation they receive from the government is also theft, even though they paid into it out of their paychecks. Guess what? I paid taxes for a long time prior to attempting to get onto welfare to tide me over til I got back on my feet so I could eat and have a roof over my head. Just like I paid for worker's comp out of my paycheck every two weeks, and for most of my working years I never once had to go out on worker's comp, until I got hurt at work because they didn't properly sand/salt their parking lot. Was THAT theft too in your eyes?

Some people aren't lucky in their life, and sometimes bad things happen to good people. By YOUR thoughts, those people should be left to die from starvation or the elements. And you know what? Thats one of the stupidest things I've ever heard in my life. Its also not a very Christian view. I believe Christ said that we should help our neighbors. Does it really matter if the neighbor is a few hundred miles away? We're all human beings, and if you care more about money than human life, well, sorry, thats just pathetic, and its also not very Christian either. Rabbi Hillel gave us the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Apparently if you were down on your luck through no fault of your own, you'd expect everyone to let you die. I can pretty much guarantee you've never been down on your luck, starving and homeless. If you ever had, you sure wouldn't be such an uncaring, selfish bastard. You'd care more about others than you do about money. I LEARNED those lessons. Just like I learned this one: He who dies with the most toys is still dead. Another good one: At the end of the game, the King and the Pawn go back in the same box.

They means something REAL simple, money means nothing. PEOPLE mean everything. And we should do everything we can to make sure poverty and homelessness, disease etc are eradicated. That doesn't make me a Marxist, a Communist, or a Socialist, Tyche, it makes me a caring human being. And I'm damn f-king proud of it, and damn proud my parents taught me to care more about people, even strangers than money.

Your insults don't bother or hurt me, Tyche, call me whatever names you like. When the day is done, I know one thing, nothing you can ever say can hurt me. I pity you, your narrowmindedness, and your insensitivy and uncaring behavior towards your fellow humans. You're pathetic. You don't worship any God, unless its money and thats pretty sad. Ciao.