Member Discussions

OnceHour: Andrew probably is a stand up guy, but the fact of the matter is that you can't advertise on the front page because it's purely IRE territory. I sent a mail inquiring about purchasing a year's advertising and was basically blown off and told it was exclusive and wouldn't change.

Lately it seems as if the entire site is just a good vehicle for driving traffic to IRE and maybe a few other minor advertiser's games rather than providing utility to the community. This place has really slipped into mediocrity compared to its old days.

Blown off? Not really, I told you the front page is not available for you, I am not sure how you wanted me to sugar coat that for you so you wouldn't get your underwear all bunched. Allow me to reiterate - The front page is not available to you, quit your whining and go be productive somewhere else. Having read your reply and observations about TMC I can assure you it would NOT be in TMC's best interests to engage in a business relationship with you so you can assume this is a 'No' to any further inquiries you might make, including the inquiry you made last night in reply to the 'front page is not available' email you received.

I think a few people have said this now and I'd like to reiterate what they said:

If you don't like the way the site is run, don't like the site's sponsorship, don't like me, don't like the blue/black color scheme, don't like that we host in Canada, etc - go away and be done with us, I promise to not miss you if that helps.

-Icculus

Blown off? Not really...

Allow me to reiterate - The front page is not available to you, quit your whining and go be productive somewhere else.

Call me crazy, but that looks suspiciously a lot like blowing someone off.

So, just to understand you correctly:

You're displeased that I pointed out your actions towards your main advertiser as being a bit uncouth, albeit a good business move.

Due to this displeasure, you feel my attempts to help sponsor the site in a way that would grant you more capitalistic freedom to not be in TMC's best interest.


Taking that as a summary, I'd like to reiterate and defend myself a little bit.

I wasn't asking for sugar coating, I was asking for customer service. General practice revolves around what you can help someone with, rather than what you refuse to. Your reaction here does show your true colors though.

Like all content producers that accept advertising with advertiser/producer interaction, you seem to have become a bit too tilted towards your advertisers. Are we just eyeballs to you now?

Community building is done through community trust, and I think your actions have lost you a lot here. You may be ingratiating your advertisers, but you're alienating your community and that's a dangerous line to lead. Your community has told you many times over what they would like from you, but here you essentially blow it off as just pure whineyness. There's not a legitimate problem here, it's just a bunch of panty twisted crybabies jockeying for spilt milk.

You've established you'd rather my presence be removed from this board, so I'll be happy to oblige your request. Do recall your actions though when the community begins to slip or your precious eyeballs start to drop.


Best,

Once

Once wrote:

Your community has told you many times over what they would like from you,

No it hasn't. The Mudconnector community mainly never says anything. Those of us on the forums do not represent the community. We're just the very small percentage of Mudconnector users who do use the forums.

That doesn't make our opinions any more valuable than those of the silent majority, nor does it make us representative of anyone else.

--matt


(Comment added by sarapis on Fri Dec 22 20:44:34 2006)

Should have added: It's why Andrew likely judges the effects of his judgement by looking at user behavior (which is largely invisible to us) rather than listening to the squeaky wheels exclusively.

--matt

OnceHour: I wasn't asking for sugar coating, I was asking for customer service. General practice revolves around what you can help someone with, rather than what you refuse to. Your reaction here does show your true colors though.
...
Due to this displeasure, you feel my attempts to help sponsor the site in a way that would grant you more capitalistic freedom to not be in TMC's best interest.

You specifically asked for price quotes for the front page, I responded that the front page was not available. You did not ask for alternative options in your first email so I did not offer them. Within a 24 hour period you went from wanting to dump 1-2 years worth of ad revenue on TMC to posting here how evil TMC has become because the front page is not available to you. If that is the kind of hypocrisy that demands better customer service then I am fresh out, that is exactly the kind of customer that I won't have.

Your community has told you many times over what they would like from you, but here you essentially blow it off as just pure whineyness. There's not a legitimate problem here, it's just a bunch of panty twisted crybabies jockeying for spilt milk.

Yes, and you do realize that the above community you refer to accounts for maybe 0.06% of TMC's userbase? I believe the term for that is vocal minority. You are 100% correct, there is not a legitimate problem here.

-Icculus

Call me crazy, but that looks suspiciously a lot like blowing someone off.

When a website like NFL.com signs an exclusive advertising contract with another company that only allows THAT company to advertise on their front page, then some other person comes along, asks for ads on the front page and NFL.com says no, are they blowing that person off, or holding true to their contractual obligations?



Due to this displeasure, you feel my attempts to help sponsor the site in a way that would grant you more capitalistic freedom to not be in TMC's best interest.

From what I understand, Icculus has an agreement with Sarapis on advertising. If Iccy were to break that, Sarapis would pull his money out of the site, and it's highly unlikely you or anyone else would be able to compensate, so from a business standpoint, how is that in this site's best interest?



That doesn't make our opinions any more valuable than those of the silent majority

Right, advertising dollars do.

Well just to clarify the record a bit, MudBytes was motivated by dissatisfaction with mudmagic.com. IRE really didn't have much to do with the decision other than to offer the free banner rotations to anyone who chose to list a mud there.

For myself, Davion, Asylumius, and Kiasyn, running MudBytes has never been about money. We have no intention of running ads. If it ever does come down to it, then I'd much rather see Google ads or something served up and not ads paid for by members using the site.

MudBytes is also something I've personally wanted to offer for a lot longer than we've actually been running it. Mudmagic just provided the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm quite certain we're not perfect. I know we have our biases. We make mistakes and do stupid thing sometimes. Anyone running a community site of this magnitude is bound to. And yes, we all have to deal with troublemakers who take things too far. Sometimes their posts are deleted. Sometimes their accounts are frozen. And sometimes they even need to be banned and deleted. Anyone who thinks a site run as an anarchy can survive for long is fooling themselves.

I like this site, despite it's flaws and despite numerous people that are involved with it.

I appreciate Iccy's dedication and his work he puts into it, and I appreciate what the site has done for the community.

Yes, it does feel like Sarapis is running the show sometimes, but oh well, that's how it is and we are faced with the choice to either accept it, or go somewhere else. Things are as they are on this site and really nothing is going to change that. I'd rather have the site than not.

Unlike Kyndig and MUD Magic, I don't feel like Iccy and TMC wrongs people, and thus, I continue to support TMC while Mud Magic can burn for all I care.

I'm terribly sleepy and really just kinda ranting, so I think I'll stop here... but that's my thoughts on the matter.

it seems as if the entire site is just a good vehicle for driving traffic to IRE
IRE provides more money to the site than any other advertiser. They do that because they have exclusive access to the front page. For you to have access to the front page, thus, you'd have to provide *more* money than they are, and furthermore, be able to provide that money more or less indefinitely, as IRE does. It is Icculus' judgement call that you would not be able to do that, and that being said, it would... quite literally... *kill* TMC to give you rights to advertising in IRE's space.

I'm calling you, jess, a liar because you obviously were.
Whatever Massaria. I've told you many times what I need from you to make your point valid. I personally think it's laughable that you think, using Wolfpaw's analogy of the court system, that we shouldn't have a criminal justice system, and live in a state of anarchy, not because it's better, but because a judge has natural biases. But whatever, if you can only resort to name calling, I'm not having a conversation with you. Feel free to hold whatever opinion you want, I couldn't honestly care less. It was nice knowing you.

(Comment added by mann_jess on Sat Dec 23 1:13:23 2006)

Yea, of course something is missing...


Best of Luck,
-Jess

When a website like NFL.com signs an exclusive advertising contract with another company that only allows THAT company to advertise on their front page, then some other person comes along, asks for ads on the front page and NFL.com says no, are they blowing that person off, or holding true to their contractual obligations?

Both, actually.

As refferenced by Dictionary.com, from the American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms, "blow off" is defined as:

1. Vent one's strong feelings; see blow off steam.
2. Disregard, ignore; evade something important.
3. Overcome, defeat easily.
4. Ignore, abandon, refuse to take part.


But I think we all see the point by which you mean Icculus won't take on any deals with other advertisers. It's like Icculus is sleeping with Sarapis. If he goes and sleeps with someone else, Sarapis will get jealous and pissy and key up his car. So Icculus refuses the offers he gets. It's that simple really.

But I think we all see the point by which you mean Icculus won't take on any deals with other advertisers. It's like Icculus is sleeping with Sarapis. If he goes and sleeps with someone else, Sarapis will get jealous and pissy and key up his car. So Icculus refuses the offers he gets. It's that simple really.

Wow.. you know absolutely nothing about business. Like it or lump it, the front page is under contract, it doesn't matter if you offer Iccy 10x what Sarapis is paying, its _still_ under contract. The contact can not be broken until it expires, lest Sarapis sue Iccy, Iccy lose, and bad things happen to TMC. He has no _choice_ except to "blow you off" .. which by the way, definitions aside, he really didn't - blowing you off would be not responding at all.

Just to prove my point:

Dictionary.com:

mud
–noun

1. wet, soft earth or earthy matter, as on the ground after rain, at the bottom of a pond, or along the banks of a river; mire.

2. Informal. scandalous or malicious assertions or information: The opposition threw a lot of mud at our candidate.

3. Slang. brewed coffee, esp. when strong or bitter.

4. a mixture of chemicals and other substances pumped into a drilling rig chiefly as a lubricant for the bit and shaft.
–verb (used with object)

5. to cover, smear, or spatter with mud: to mud the walls of a hut.

6. to stir up the mud or sediment in: waders mudding the clear water.
–verb (used without object)

7. to hide in or burrow into mud.

Funny.. I don't see text based video game in there.. or did I miss it?

What do you mean things have definitions not listed in the dictionary!?!?

BLASPHEMER!

-D.

(Comment added by wolfpaw on Sat Dec 23 11:35:34 2006)

Oh.. and before someone says "But if he got 10x the amount for the front page.. he could just pay the lawsuit.."

Now that wouldn't be very ethical of Iccy, now would it? What's that I hear.. proof he has some ethics.. perhaps some morals, and some people here will be forced to remove the *CENSORED* from between thier buttocks?

Ahh.. yeah.. thought so =)

He has no _choice_ except to "blow you off" .. which by the way, definitions aside, he really didn't - blowing you off would be not responding at all.

Sorry, I should have repeated what I said multiple times. I keep assuming those I talk to aren't afflicted with short attention spans and will just read everything said to them. So I'll try again:

4. Ignore, abandon, REFUSE TO TAKE PART.

And just for good measure:

REFUSE TO TAKE PART

It doesn't matter how Icculus blew him off. He blew him off. He could have been silent, he could have paid an airplane to write smoke signals in the sky. Any refusal of an offer, no matter how happily or how offensively done, is blowing someone off.

And as for "MUD" not being found in your short-lived search through one dictionary source, I'd be inclined to say Dictionaries blew off Mudders. Go figure, though.

Oh ok.. I see now. Your making a moot point which has no reflection or relevance as to how well, or poorly Icculus runs the site.. your just saying he's a bad guy for doing what he's legally required to do.

OK.. hey thanks for clearing that up for me =) Appearently I stand corrected.

Bad Wolfy..
-D.

It's people like this guy that makes those of us with valid points or complaints look like children.

>> It doesn't matter how Icculus blew him off. He blew him off. He could have been silent, he could have paid an airplane to write smoke signals in the sky. Any refusal of an offer, no matter how happily or how offensively done, is blowing someone off. >> endquote

So this means that if I walk up to you on the street and offer you $5 to fellate me, and you refuse the offer, that you've still blown me off?

hahahah hahahah haha hah ha ha.

But seriously, folks.

--Ben

OnceHour said:
I wasn't asking for sugar coating, I was asking for customer service. General practice revolves around what you can help someone with, rather than what you refuse to. Your reaction here does show your true colors though.

You honestly expect you can post:

If you really think Icculus is being that unfair, coordinate and buy your own ads. If you think the Diku ads are abhorrent, some of you could make anti-IRE ads. Hell, you could even link to a site that gives information on why IRE is bad.

and,

If someone wants to make a site touting the evils of IRE, I'd gladly host it. I might even throw in an advertising campaign for it here just to help people get their message across.

and then have Iccy take you seriously? I don't think so. I think you're dishonest, manipulative, and condescending.

You only seem to have enamored one supporter, what a nice couple you make.

Please consider this a kind of place holder post for a future retort to both Woldpaw and Jess.
For now I have time for just one point:

Wolfpaw wrote:
He puts up with alot of *CENSORED* from this place, maybe you should just appreciate that and shut your trap.

I appreciate this site, and that's why I'm not shutting my trap. Appreciate that.

So much for the "Tis the season to be jolly" and the whole, "Peace and joy to all" or whatever those lovely little trite phrases are used around Christmas time.

Massaria and Jess, you're never gonna agree. Massaria, you're entitled to your opinions, and while they may not be agreed with by others, oh well, thats why they're opinions. Jess, you're a respected person as well, and your opinion also may not be agreed with by others.

So, instead of inundating us all with accusations that this person is a liar, and that person has to provide proof, etc, and some other dips*** saying we're windbags (just because he can't string more than 2 sentences together and continue a coherent thought isn't my problem, or maybe its because if he tries to read posts that use large words and are well thought out and reasoned, logical, etc he gets headaches..who knows) Basically what I'm saying is, agree to disagree, and let this post begun by a complete dumb ass who wanted to do nothing BUT help fracture the TMC community even more AND also cause trouble for Iccy, die. You both make good arguments for your side, you won't convince the other. All that will come of continuing this will be bad blood...and in that case Nameless wins by default, and do we REALLY want that little slime to continue patting himself on the back because of all the trouble he's caused on TMC ever since he created that name for the SOLE SAKE of posting in a thread that was incendiary, which he added fire to several months ago? He's also caused or assisted in many of the in-fighting going on around here. Think on it.

Just agree with her Jess. This thread has gone all zombie on us and it's the only way to kill it.

Well, I wasn't actually planning on continuing to respond. Thus the "nice knowing you" comment. Honestly, I was under the impression this was dead already... given the more than 3 days of silence. Oh well though. *smile* *shrug*

Best of Luck, and Merry Belated Christmas,
-Jess

Let me summarize this windy post:

Merry Christmas. You suck.

You are entitled your opinions (Captian Obvious strikes again).

We windbags, not. Dumbarsess. Trolls. You sucks. Die die die.

I'm in the middle of moving, well, at the ending by now - but that's my excuse for entering a reply after this long.

What...?!? you mean .. Icculus can be biased.. and not entirely fair 100% of the time?

Yeah, that's what I mean. Jess seems to have a different opinion though. Maybe you two should form some kind of support group?

Since your pointing out his moral flaws.. I suppose yours are beyond reproach? You've never made an unfair judgement?

I don't have to be perfect in order to see the imperfections of others.
While I have made countless bad calls in my life (of which many where probably unfair too), I've never told people what they can say, and I doubt I ever will. What's more, I've never positioned myself to be in a position where my integrity could so easily be called into question.

"Fairness is an illusion we create for our children, so they learn how to share. It does _not_ exist in the real world."

You teach your child that they live in a wholly unfair world? I guess you'll be correct if enough people teach their children such cynicism.

Your boss won't be fair when he fires you because hes having a bad day, the judge won't be fair when he convicts you of something you didn't do, ...

I guess he won't. On the other hand, he'll be fair when he acquits me, and it's fair that I get fired if the boss lays off the most recently hired, and I happen to be it.
Fairness does exist. I pitty you, that you don't see it.

This whole discussion on if he's fair or he isn't is just completely useless.

Then stop contributing. This discussion is useful for several things: a) we, those who read the thread, get to see the other side of the coin, so to say, and b) those who participate get to exercise that most important muscle, the brain, and finally a) I get to spend my time doing something I enjoy.
Not completely useless after all. Just slightly ;-)

He puts up with alot of *CENSORED* from this place, maybe you should just appreciate that and shut your trap.

This is the second time you've told me to shut up. You'll notice I respond poorly to such requests, especially when they're so rudely stated.

I think your way of behaving and speaking in this thread goes to back up my point. I've never seen you voice your opinions so vehemently or rudely before, which apparently is a result of you having no financial interests in the mudding community any more.
Imagine how Andrew might sound if he had no financial interests either. At the very least different, I'm sure.

If you think its 'all about the money' your a fool.

If you think you read this somewhere in my posts, you're the fool.

With hopes of a very happy and fair new year to you, and your boy.
Mass.

Whatever Massaria. I've told you many times what I need from you to make your point valid.

That I can't prove a point to you, makes it ok for you to make arguments that have no basis in truth?
I've provided ample examples and armuments to show how icculus is influenced by serapis. That your pride prevents you from seeing a point that would make Captain Obvious smack his forehead in frustration is your problem, not mine.

I personally think it's laughable that you think, using Wolfpaw's analogy of the court system, that we shouldn't have a criminal justice system, and live in a state of anarchy, not because it's better, but because a judge has natural biases.

Where do you people read these things? Are we on the same forum? That I should be of the opinion that the rules that govern this website is readily applicable to the courts and laws of the real world is absurd.

But whatever, if you can only resort to name calling, I'm not having a conversation with you.

Is it namecalling when it's true? No sure about that one. Perhaps, but I hope this post will prove, even to you, that I can do much more than call you a name.

Feel free to hold whatever opinion you want, I couldn't honestly care less.

I honestly think you could. You've gone on longer than anyone. You really do care about my opinion, and you're a better person for it.

It was nice knowing you.

No it wasn't. Now stop lieing, Jess ;-)

I wish you a happy new year, and that's the truth!
Mass.

You teach your child that they live in a wholly unfair world? I guess you'll be correct if enough people teach their children such cynicism.

Sounds like a great thing to teach ones children to me, and is most likely something I will someday teach my children when I have children. If you have your children grow up with the thought that everything in real life is great and that everyone is nice they are destined to fail due to naivety. If on the other hand you teach them that fairness doesn't exist you are more likely to create a cold corporate giant, sure both of these scenarios have their downsides, but I'her be an untrusting cold rich bastard than a happy go lucky overly trusting person that is nothing more than fodder for those of higher intellect and understanding to take advantage of. Whether or not you admit that life isn't fair is up to you, but either way in the end it isn't and you better yourself with knowing this at the beginning instead of learning it only in hindsight after getting *CENSORED*ed over multiple times.

Ok.

I think everyone's position is clear. I don't
think it's necessary to rehash that one person
is sure Icculus will be unfair, and another
person is sure that he may or may not be.

Really, I think it's settled.

However, since it seems people are bound and
determined to keep this thread alive, I
would ask for a new set of specifics to discuss.

If we assume, for the sake of argument, that
Massaria is right, and Icculus will provide
preferential treatment on threads to people who
pay him, then let me ask this:

1) Does it matter?
2) If it matters, do individuals need to do something?
3) If they need to do something, what is it?

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net/


(Comment added by cratylus on Sat Dec 30 16:55:10 2006)

w00t! post #200!