Member Discussions

Gotcha, didn't realize that was a big thing in some MMOs :p

Oh man, you should check out some of the crafter forums for games like Wow and now SWTOR - they are always very very active,and usually full of complaints. ;)

-Iccy

I'd like to suggest SlothMUD for the fantasy/h&s, as we have been around for over 21 years now, continually ranked in the top 5 on TMC, and possess a very solid player base of around 20-45.

We have a great staff and our players are extremely newbie friendly. Our game includes the vast majority of major protocols, our website is well above average and includes one of the best live information categories and dynamic maps available, and we even have a pretty decent graphical client and facebook application.

We are one of the oldest and most respected DIKU muds available.

Thanks for the consideration,
Slothmud

I'd like to suggest SlothMUD for the fantasy/h&s, as we have been around for over 21 years now, continually ranked in the top 5 on TMC, and possess a very solid player base of around 20-45.

Unless anyone has any objections I think the mud sounds like a good addition! Post or email if you have any concernes!

-Iccy

Slothmud is a solid addition, it's been around forever and
it's always been popular.

I like the setup, but I'd rather see more consistency. For example SWmud is listed under both "Science Fiction" and "PvP"; if you're going to put muds under multiple sections, then is there really a need for a "PvP + Rolelay" section? Perhaps even more confusingly, 4 Dimensions and Dark Risings are listed under both "PvP + Rolelay" and "Roleplay", but not "PvP".

To be honest I think I'd rather see it split into two sections, one for genre (fantasy, dark fantasy, science fiction, time travel, etc) and one for the main type of gameplay (PvP, roleplay, questing, etc). It doesn't have to cover every detail, we've got the listings for that. And on that subject, while I certainly agree with 4 Dimensions as a good choice for newbies, I'm not sure I'd categorise it as either "roleplay" or "PvP". It is however an excellent choice for a "questing" type mud, as well as the only mud with a "time travel" genre that I know of.

Finally, instead of offering a random pick when you click a style of mud, how about bringing up all the matching suggestions with a short blurb (1-2 sentences) about each?

Sorry about the late response, I have not been here
for a few days. But I have noticed that a good share of
the MUDs picked are MUDs owned or staffed by posters to
this thread. Now, I don't really blame anyone, everyone
wants more players. But, I decided that I will be an
advocate of a MUD that has all the requirements listed.
That being:
Realms of Despair

To be honest I think I'd rather see it split into two sections, one for genre (fantasy, dark fantasy, science fiction, time travel, etc) and one for the main type of gameplay (PvP, roleplay, questing, etc).

That sounds like a reasonable suggestion, can you give me examples of muds that would qualify for fantasy but not fark-fantasy or the opposite?

I don't think I'm ready to make the other suggested change though, regarding giving them a list of matching muds to choose from. I am trying to minimize the work/decision making for them and simply giving them a button to press. Its about as far in the opposite direction of ease-of-use as TMC has ever been , the website has always really been about muds for mudders and this explains why the 10,000+k visitors google tells me it is sending to TMC each month were taking a glance and leaving more confused than ever.

What I am hoping to do is let the system work as it is for a little while so I can then ask the mud admins involved what kind of new player activity they are seeing, if any. As of right now there have been 1600+ connect buttons generated, though I expect many of those have been from people cycling through to see the choices. The blurb idea might be a good addition in the meantime, and possibly a button for choosing a different mud from the list.

-Iccy

But, I decided that I will be an
advocate of a MUD that has all the requirements listed.
That being:
Realms of Despair

Realms of Despair - all opposed say 'Nay'

I was thinking of adding this one the other day and forgot to post!

SlothMUD has been added to the fantasy category.

I'll start thinking of a genre vs play-style breakdown and forming the lists...

-Iccy

.(...) if you're going to put muds under multiple sections, then is there really a need for a "PvP + Rolelay" section? Perhaps even more confusingly, 4 Dimensions and Dark Risings are listed under both "PvP + Rolelay" and "Roleplay", but not "PvP".

I don't think potential gamers looking to enjoy both RP and PK experiences in one game should have to search through the different listings to see if one game is listed under both categories. Muds which are both RP/PK should definitely be in their own category, in my opinion, because the blended RP/PK experience is what sets them apart.

As to why one mud could be in two categories, I can't speak for 4 Dimensions, but on Dark Risings it is fine to play a peaceful character who chooses to avoid PK (while still being heavily involved in all other aspects of the game), so it -is- suitable for players looking for an RP-only mud. RP is required to PK (meaning we don't allow random attacks) and since there is a lot of conflict developing through RP, those who want to take it to the level of PK typically have no problem doing both. Therefore it is also suitable for players looking for a blend of both (which is the gaming experience we recommend most). However, it is not suitable at all for players who are looking for PK-only. Players must be willing to RP at least a little to play Dark Risings, and although we recommend they also engage in PK, they can choose not to, and still be very successful in the game. So: the game can be classed as RP, more ideally as RP/PK, but not -just- as PK.

Hopefully this explanation was less confusing than the initial confusion :)

Icculus wrote:
That sounds like a reasonable suggestion, can you give me examples of muds that would qualify for fantasy but not fark-fantasy or the opposite?

Well dark fantasy is generally a blend of the fantasy and horror genres. Obvious examples would be the World of Darkness muds, as well as those based on settings such as Buffy, True Blood, Anne Rice's novels, the Dresden Files, the Anita Blake books, etc.

I'd have recommended a pure horror genre category, but I don't think you've got any horror muds on the list.

Icculus wrote:
What I am hoping to do is let the system work as it is for a little while so I can then ask the mud admins involved what kind of new player activity they are seeing, if any.

I'm collecting data, so I'll let you know.

Sidonie wrote:
As to why one mud could be in two categories, I can't speak for 4 Dimensions, but on Dark Risings it is fine to play a peaceful character who chooses to avoid PK (while still being heavily involved in all other aspects of the game), so it -is- suitable for players looking for an RP-only mud.

My concern is that muds will just add themselves to as many categories as possible in order to increase their exposure. Your mud is RP encouraged and PK optional, but so are more than 30% of the muds on TMC. I doubt it'd be long before a Star Wars (or some other Science Fantasy) mud decides it belongs to every single category.

Personally I'd prefer to see each mud specify one genre along with one gameplay category as its main focus, rather than turn this into another feature list with everyone trying to check all the boxes. Your website mentions the need for "valid in-role reasons for PK", which sounds like PK supports the RP - that's actually very common for RP-oriented muds. In fact I'm struggling to think of any RP muds that don't allow PK for valid in-character reasons.

Personally I'd prefer to see each mud specify one genre along with one gameplay category as its main focus, rather than turn this into another feature list with everyone trying to check all the boxes.

I really like this idea. Instead of just listing what a mud can do, list what it does best (at least in the opinions of the mud owners).

My concern is that muds will just add themselves to as many categories as possible in order to increase their exposure. Your mud is RP encouraged and PK optional, but so are more than 30% of the muds on TMC.

The list is still pretty small ( 17 muds )and I really didn't intend to let it get out of control. I think we have a pretty good variety right now and I want to keep it small while we are evaluating how useful and effective this whole thing is. I believe Realms of Despair is a good candidate and if another couple of obvious inclusions present themselves thats fine, but I won't want to go beyond that for now. I think the misconception here is that if a mud suggests itself here they will be added, that is not going to be the case for very much longer, I'm just about to the limit, at the least for the time being.

-Iccy

I'm not so sure the suggested genre selection works for me, the time travel genre has just one mud while the fantasy genre has closer to 6 or 7 muds. I could live with combining sci-fi and time travel which would give 4 mud choices. The dark fantasy genre might be coming up short also ...

-Iccy

Personally I'd prefer to see each mud specify one genre along with one gameplay category as its main focus, rather than turn this into another feature list with everyone trying to check all the boxes.

This just seems too simplistic in my opinion. I think it's entirely possible (even probable) that a mud will justifiably fit more than one category. To me, this project is about working together to build the community, not lying or misrepresenting your game to get it put into categories it does not adequately represent. Therefore if the mud can deliver the goods and give the player the type of game experience he is expecting, that's all that should matter. If it can do it for one category, great. If it can do it for two or three or all, also great.

I also think it would be very limiting to have to choose only one genre, especially if the genres are too narrowly defined. To me, "checking the boxes" gives an indication of what a game is going to be like: it is fantasy AND dark fantasy AND sci-fi (or whatever). That's a simplified example, but it illustrates that it is often the -combination- of elements that makes a game what it is. For a game like that, how would you accurately pick just one genre to define it? Wouldn't new players be put off if the maker defined it as fantasy, and they wandered in looking for some serious LOTR-style play and found vampire elves running around with lasers? If a game is all things equally then it should be defined as all things equally, not shoehorned into a one-genre-fits-all category.

(I also now want to play a vampire elf with a lasergun. Maybe that was a bad example.)

Icculus wrote:
I'm not so sure the suggested genre selection works for me, the time travel genre has just one mud while the fantasy genre has closer to 6 or 7 muds. I could live with combining sci-fi and time travel which would give 4 mud choices. The dark fantasy genre might be coming up short also ...

I was mostly trying to split up the genres to avoid having 3 Science Fiction and 14 Fantasy. But yeah there's only really 2 Dark Fantasy (although it might be worth adding a World of Darkness MUSH, it would offer something very different to the other recommendations). You could put 4 Dimensions into a Mythology category along with LegendMUD and Realms of Despair, but that's not such a great fit either. The three D&D-themed muds could have a category, possibly including Wheel of Time and even DragonBall Evolution to cover fantasy based on established fiction, but that's starting to become a bit of a stretch.

Perhaps it's better not to bother with a separate genre category after all, and just use the genre for muds that don't have a particular emphasis on RP or PK, like you're doing already. I do like the idea of a separate category for genre, but I think it's going to be very difficult to pidgeonhole the 17 muds.

Going through the categories, we've currently got:

Fantasy

TorilMud (RP Encouraged, non-PK) (Fantasy: D&D Forgotten Realms)

Lensmoor (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Fantasy)

Ansalon (RP Encouraged, PK) (Fantasy: D&D DragonLance)

SlothMUD (RP Accepted, optional PK) (Fantasy: Medieval)

Wheel of Time (RP Encouraged, PK) (Fantasy: Wheel of Time)

Alter Aeon (RP Accepted, optional PK) (Fantasy: Medieval)

Science Fiction

Star Wars Mud (RP Accepted, optional PK) (Science Fiction/Fantasy: Star Wars)

CyberASSAULT (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Science Fiction/Post Apocalyptic)

Federation II (RP Encouraged, non-PK) (Science Fiction)

PvP

Star Wars Mud (RP Accepted, optional PK) (Science Fiction/Fantasy: Star Wars)

Duris (RP Accepted, PK) (Fantasy: D&D Forgotten Realms)

God Wars II (non-RP, PK) (Dark Fantasy)

Roleplay

4 Dimensions (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Time Travel: Prehistoric, Medieval, Old West, Future)

Dark Risings (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Dark Fantasy: Gothic Medieval)

Lensmoor (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Fantasy)

LegendMUD (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Fantasy: Mythology)

PvP + Roleplay

4 Dimensions (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Time Travel: Prehistoric, Medieval, Old West, Future)

Dark Risings (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Dark Fantasy: Gothic Medieval)

DragonBall Evolution (RP Encouraged, PK) (Fantasy: Manga/Anime)

Carrion Fields (RP Enforced, PK) (Fantasy)

???

Realms of Despair (RP Encouraged, optional PK) (Fantasy: Mythology/Occult)

Sidonie wrote:
This just seems too simplistic in my opinion. I think it's entirely possible (even probable) that a mud will justifiably fit more than one category.

Well yes, that's rather my point. In fact 11 of the 17 muds are RP Encouraged, with 1 RP Enforced, so that's 12 muds that could argue they belong in the "Roleplay" category - and of those, 10 also have PK, and could justify being added to "PvP + Roleplay". 15 of the muds also include "PvP", and 15 of them could be classified as "Fantasy".

But a recommendation list isn't the same as an exhaustive and detailed mud list. If someone asked me to recommend some fantasy muds, or roleplaying muds, or PvP muds, I would only suggest perhaps 2 or 3 different ones. And I'd rather see the same sort of approach here, recommending each mud based on a single category representing its main focus.

However the issue I was discussing earlier was one of consistency. All of the muds in the "Roleplay" category have optional PK, but only half of them are also included in the "PvP + Roleplay" category. After going over the muds I've realised there are actually two that list themselves as non-PK and RP Encouraged, but they're not included in the "Roleplay" category - so if all of the "Roleplay" recommendations also have PvP, I don't think it really makes sense to have both "Roleplay" and "PvP + Roleplay" as two separate categories (particularly when some muds are being put in one and others in both).

Hmmm, KaVir does have a good point. How about using these categories, PvE/PK, RP/PK, and PvE/RP? If a MUD accepts RP, it should put them in the RP category, if PK is allowed the same goes for that. Most MUDs nowadays have quite a bit of PvE in them, some more than others. I know you said you didn't want to use a check list but that would help narrow down what a new player is looking for in a game. It could ask a few simple questions like "Do you enjoy acting out your character?" "Do you enjoy killing other players?" and "Do you enjoy killing NPCs or questing?". The only problem with that is that we may get a lot of new players who enjoy doing all 3 of those.

If anything the Fantasy category should be condensed into the other ones considering MUDs in the other categories are mainly fantasy MUDs. PvE could replace the Fantasy category. At the same time, who's to say what fantasy really is or what it truly stands for? Everyone will have their own opinion on what fantasy is when it comes to a game or theme.

One possible solution would be to remove all the categories and allow the players to pick from the list that KaVir provided above. It clearly states what each MUD offers and what theme it is.

If I've repeated anything someone else suggested, sorry but after reading 90 posts, things tend to blend together.

Darkozx wrote:
Hmmm, KaVir does have a good point. How about using these categories, PvE/PK, RP/PK, and PvE/RP? If a MUD accepts RP, it should put them in the RP category, if PK is allowed the same goes for that. Most MUDs nowadays have quite a bit of PvE in them, some more than others.

The problem is that doesn't really narrow things down - except for the pure social ones, the vast majority of muds have at least some form of PK/PvP, HnS/PvE and RP. This is why I prefer the single category solution; it promotes muds based on their strongest selling point.

Imagine that four potential players are looking for new muds. The first loves PK/PvP, the second is into HnS/PvE, the third is a hardcore roleplayer and the fourth is a huge fan of quests and exploration. Only one of them will be directed to your mud: which one would you like?

Now I imagine many muds would argue that they appeal to all four types of player, but in almost all cases one of those styles of gameplay will be better supported than the others. If you've got 20 muds each listed in all four categories, then you've got 20 muds competing for each player. If they're instead split, so that there's 5 muds per category, then statistically speaking each mud would receive around the same number of new players - but those new players will be interested in the "best" feature of the mud and the chance of retention should be higher.

In reality of course not every category is equally popular, but generally you'll find that the more popular categories also have more muds, so I believe the principle would still apply.

I've been putting off responding to this thread again, because A) I've been trying to conduct some research and B) I have been
insanely busy with work this week. However, the thread is getting a bit out of hand and I think some of the research I've
already done has been rendered pointless. I might as well respond now. I won't bother quoting specifics of what I'm responding
to, because like Darkozx, it's all starting to blend together for me, too.

I started out trying to come up with some viable suggestions, per the initial criteria, for other MUDs with a major crafting
focus. It yielded some results, but far fewer than I had hoped. Next, like KaVir, I started trying to think of ways to
restructure the existing recommendations. It does seem a bit inconsistent and perhaps inequitable to have some of the games
listed under multiple categories.

Inequity or misinformation - those are the issues you get to pick between when you start including lots of options without
clear guidelines. People just race to check the boxes, for fear of being left behind. I noticed the same thing when I
initially tried searching TMC for crafting MUDs based on the crafting check box. It yields quite the long list, but just from
skimming it, I know of a couple that are a stretch, if not an outright lie. Where do you draw the line, though? If you have
one command that creates one static item - is that a crafting system? If you have a command that lets a player rename an
object - is that a crafting system? I would argue not, but this isn't really the place for that discussion.

It almost seems that the recommended games list would be better left un-categorized, if not for the fact that many games offer
such differing experiences, which may be off-putting to first-time players, not knowing what to expect. Given this, we seem
forced to categorize it, meaning it is incumbent upon us to ensure that we have both the simplest and most representative set
of categories. Even with the simple set of PvP and RP gameplay types, we've seen arguments about differing mixes. Never mind
the fact that many of us, myself included, feel that those are nowhere near a representative set of gameplay types. PvE/H&S is
a major one missing, and Crafting may or may not be. Enumerating these types over countless themes is where you really start
to muddy the waters.

This is my proposal, and it probably mirrors pieces of what has been said by others already: Dial back on the theme/gameplay
enumeration, add a PvE category (with possibly a mention of Crafting, if it doesn't get its own category), place each MUD into
the SINGLE most representative category and provide a short blurb for each on what sets it apart from the rest of the category
(1-3 sentences).

Also, for what it's worth, this is what my research into good crafting focused MUDs has turned up:
DartMUD: LP, fantasy, LOTS of players, well put together newbie school/intro, but no global channels
Dark Legacy: SMAUG, fantasy, much smaller number of players than it used to have, but they seemed responsive/friendly
CONQuest: custom, slight learning curve, completely non-existent player base now :(

And, there is my game, of course - The 7th Plane: Merc/Godwars derived, but mostly custom now, dark (almost Lovecraftian
horror) fantasy, player population currently low, but they are responsive/friendly - should be a population spike soon

I would recommend DBE, 4 Dimensions, The 7th Plane and possibly DartMUD and Dark Legacy under some form of the PvE category.
Everyone feel free to discuss...

I had a few more on my list to check into, but I wasn't expecting much. I was quite discouraged by the low player activity on
the dozen or so I did try. There were several games were I idled for entire days, just waiting to see if anyone else would
login. They're like ghost towns, abandoned even by their creators. It was seriously depressing.

One more thing I noticed on the newbie intro - a nearly universal command missing: 'inventory'. I know, we're not trying to
add every command there is, but that seems like a rather important one. There are no other commands on the list that interact
with or present the concept of objects (and not in the object-oriented programming sense). Also, a lot of MMO players would at
least find the concept of an inventory display to be familiar.

Apologies for the long rambling post - I have to get back to work for now.

Unfortunately I agree that this is getting out of hand and instead of making it easier to get a new player into a game it'll have the opposite effect.

The one suggestion I like is closest to taking whats there now and converting it to just 3 categories:

player vs. environment:
player vs. player:
role-play focused:

I think that'll be the easiest way to let a new player choose and we'll restrict each mud to be in only one category to make it more fair. At some point later I imagine we'll change the system to provide more info ( blurb for muds, give the player a list, etc ) but thats not going to happen at this point because I want to see how the thing is working.

-Iccy

Icculus wrote:
player vs. environment:
player vs. player:
role-play focused:

player vs. environment
player vs. player
player vs. STORY

You accidentally a parallelism, but I fixed it for you. :-p

Also, I definitely like that setup better, but it feels like something will be missing without the blurb - the theme. If
you click on a MUD called "Star Wars", most everyone is going to know to expect science fiction. However, clicking on a
MUD called "The 7th Plane" doesn't really scream dark fantasy.

And what did you think about adding 'inventory' to the list of commands on the newbie intro?

How about having the user pick TWO and then making suggestions?

World
---
xFantasy
xModern
xFuturistic
xAnime
xVideo Game
XAdult (If need be)

Conflict
---
xPlayer vs. Enviornment
xPlayer vs. Player
xRoleplay

So if the player chooses 'Fantasy' and 'Roleplay', suggestions akin to my MUD are listed. :) And so on. The only thing I don't think is covered would be simple chat clients and the really out-there stuff.

player vs. environment
player vs. player
player vs. STORY

That works for me, shouldn't be too hard to find a fit for each mud ...

I will add a blurb about the inventory command as well!

-Iccy

That works for me too.
Except that I think 'player versus Roleplay' would be easier to understand for most people than 'player vs. STORY', because Roleplay is such an established phenomenon. I mean, what Mud doesn't have a Background story?

I definitely believe it's best to keep the intro as simple as possible. If the newcomers get hooked on text Muds, (which of course is what we all hope), they can always move on to the big search engine later.

And, yes, 4D should definitely be listed under 'player vs. environment'. Although we encourage both pvp and roleplay, I cannot claim that we are particularly notable in either. Our game is definitely about exploring, questing, trading and some H&S along the way.

I really hope everyone knows the "player vs. STORY" thing was a joke...

If not, I seriously worry about you people. :-p

I think 'Roleplay' is a much more ubiquitous term than 'Player versus Story' or player versus anything that doesn't fit under the PvE and PvP labels. A significant portion of MUD and MMORPG players are attracted to the Roleplay aspect, and too a large number of games are labelled roleplay-mandatory/enforced/intensive. It's a niche I feel should be represented under the label the includes the word(s?) 'roleplay'.