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"Four of the finest MUDS on the planet, FREE, now and forever.
THE IRON REALMS
Tired of the endless DIKUs and their shallow gameplay? Fed up with non-existent customer service? Come play with us and discover a higher standard of excellence. Iron Realms: When you're ready to step up and play with the professionals."


Not to mention also with them having the "license" to create a Raymond E. Feist MUD and havnt done it yet. I've got ideas out the arse and lots of stuff written out, and have for years regarding a Feist MUD. But no, none of us can, because well, its "licensed" to IRE. If they're not gonna do it, someone needs to say hey, give us a chance. I know the Feist books like the back of my hand, 100x's over. But now, just reading that main ad just makes me even more sick. The thought of even paying for a mud period makes me sick to my stomach. As long as I've been playing muds and creating them, pfft.

Sorry just a small rant. I just think its morally wrong and unethical to say what they "advertise" in that ad, Its a bash to the mud society, and should go. Who's with me?

The argument about the ad aside... what's to stop you from creating a Feist MUD?

Maybe they have the license to it... but can they really sue you for putting up a free MUD based on it? I thought copy right didn't extend to free stuff like that, only if you were gonna make money off it or claim it as your own.

As far as i've been told, the license states that not even free. That they hold the world wide license for it. I dunno. I personally think its a crock that such a license should exist. Especially if its free and no money is to be made from it.

http://midkemia.ire-community.com/

They are working on it, but are using(or so Matt has said) a completely different system, which requires coding the entire thing from nothing, where with their other muds they have used a similar base code and modified it.

The argument about the ad aside... what's to stop you from creating a Feist MUD?

Raymond Feist.

(Comment added by Tyche on Mon Jun 12 10:55:47 2006)

http://www.psihawk.com/feist/feist-faq.html#CG-Licensing

I have often heard the argument Feist makes in that link, that the IP owner can't let a mud (or some other entity) use his IP even though he'd love to, because if he doesn't protect his IP then he loses the right to protect it. Fine, I understand that. But if he really doesn't object to the entity using it, why doesn't he just license it to them on some very limiting terms in exchange for $1 or so? I would imagine that at that point he would have done everything the law requires to protect his IP - it certainly doesn't set any sort of precedent that he's required to license it to the next comer for $1.

Kjartan wrote:

I have often heard the argument Feist makes in that link, that the IP owner can't let a mud (or some other entity) use his IP even though he'd love to, because if he doesn't protect his IP then he loses the right to protect it. Fine, I understand that. But if he really doesn't object to the entity using it, why doesn't he just license it to them on some very limiting terms in exchange for $1 or so? I would imagine that at that point he would have done everything the law requires to protect his IP - it certainly doesn't set any sort of precedent that he's required to license it to the next comer for $1.


He doesn't license it for $1 to hobbyist groups because if he did, you wouldn't have found us, for instance, paying a lot more money to license it. One of the reasons the Midkemia IP is attractive to us (aside from being a big personal fan of Midkemia) is because Mr. Feist has done a good job over the years of controlling infringement of his IP. It's not an option now in any case, as our license is exclusive.

--matt

You can always create a mud that is inspired by concepts in Feist's work. Most MUDs for example have halflings instead of hobbits, because using the name hobbit might be a possible IP violation.

Next you advertise that the mud was inspired by the work of Feist and some cool Nirvana tunes, little that can be done about that either ;)

Hogging a whole "world" to yourself is fairly selfish. I think they're just afraid that someone could build a better mud of the same world, and steal the competition.

Btw, I hold the copyright on... "all-things-that-were-thought-up-from-bad-lsd-trips-that-
involve-midgets-of-any-kind-shape-or-color-as-well-as-all-
things-not-currently-existent-in-this-earth"

This means alot of muds will be hearing from me soon. YOU HEAR THAT?! I SOO! SOO SO BAD YOU GOT NO...umm...wow. Yeah. I own that rant too. I'd suggest kicking Fiest in the knads, but it appears that by selling the liscense, he also gave away his rights to a man as well. Oh well... there's always rubber replacements.

(Comment added by Epilogy on Mon Jun 12 14:02:35 2006)

his manhood*

> I've got ideas out the arse and lots of stuff written out,
> and have for years regarding a Feist MUD. But no, none of
> us can, because well, its "licensed" to IRE.

You can still do something similar, as long as you're not using the same names, characters, maps, storyline, etc.

For example supposing you wanted a GodWars-style mud set during the Chaos Wars, where each player was a Valheru, had to tame their own dragon, construct their signature weapon and armour, gather Moredhel and Eledhel servants, and wage war across the worlds...

No problem. Just call the Valheru something different, rename the Moredhel and Eledhel to 'wood elves' and 'dark elves' respectively, call the Gods something different, and you're ready to go.

If your mud idea has the potential to be good, the game you produce will be just as good - it'll just lose out on the automatic fan-base. If the eventual mud sucks, then it would have sucked regardless; the popularity of the theme might keep a mediocre mud afloat, or make a bland mud more attractive, but it won't make the game itself any better.

In addition to what Matt said, it would also cost them more than $1 to pay the lawyers fees to draw up the paperwork... lawyers are too expensive (*Yes mom, I'm talking about you again, I know you mothers always hear everything we say about you... it's 5:30am time for bed...)

Hate to be blunt here guys - but honestly:

Feist wrote the stuff, he can put whatever demands he sees
fit on who uses it. This is the nature of copyright, and intellectual property. I could write a book, and probably
claim only people with white hair can use my work..

As far as IRE is concerned - again bluntly - welcome to the
business world. Those with the Gold make the Rules. Feist.
makes something from IRE for his work, IRE gets exclusive
right to use it.. and hence earn profits from players. If
Feist. allows you to run off making 200 muds off his work,
why would IRE bother to pay him for it? It has to then
compete with 200 games, offering at least simular content.

Simple economics.. Rude, and Inconsiderate have absolutely
nothing to do with it. The is a very inexperianced view of
the facts in this case.

-D.

I was speaking in relative terms. If you got the license, then use it. Don't keep it idle so that others can't play around with it. Thats just bogus and unheard of. We all know that if a Feist MUD comes out, its gonna PWN the mud world. I mean i'm honestly ready to see what IRE pulls out of its back end this time.

But as far as what I was speaking of and your words, "Those with the Gold make the Rules". Thats BS! Thats what that is, there is a blantent knock on all MUDS out there in an AD on this website. Right there, in plain view. I say keep that stuff on their own website and keep things clean. I don't sit here and say stuff like "IRE IS CRAP COME PLAY FOR FREE AT MY MUD!!"

I was simply saying, that its wrong and immoral, and who the hell would wanna play a mud when that mud is out there dissin everything else that exists on a public website that has the calibur that Mudconnect has. With the word of mouth and everything that this website pushes out. You'd think that people would not want that kind of advertisement sitting out like that. I dunno, just my thoughts.

I don't sit here and say stuff like "IRE IS CRAP COME PLAY FOR FREE AT MY MUD!!"

I wonder if I could get away with putting that in the ad for my MUD and pay to have it in rotation....

(Comment added by Hades_Kane on Mon Jun 12 17:17:36 2006)

But I do agree with labelling all Diku derivatives as having "shallow gameplay" as a bit disrespectful to the community in general. If it weren't for the endless Diku MUDs, I have a tough time thinking MUDing would have ever reached the popularity it has, and that IRE would be making half as much money as a "Pay for Perks" MUD. I might have a bit of a distaste for the admittedly "sea of endless Diku" stock MUDs out there, but I also have a great deal of respect for the people that pioneered the hobby and would never show such a blatant amount of disrespect in such a manner.

From Ashen24:

But as far as what I was speaking of and your words, "Those with the Gold make the Rules". Thats BS! Thats what that is, there is a blantent knock on all MUDS out there in an AD on this website. Right there, in plain view. I say keep that stuff on their own website and keep things clean. I don't sit here and say stuff like "IRE IS CRAP COME PLAY FOR FREE AT MY MUD!!"



Actually, what he said is only a blatent knock again DIKU-style muds. And since not all MUDs are Diku muds, it probably doesn't affect quite as many as you think. As to your thoughts that "Those with the gold make the rules" is bullsh*t, just out of curiosity, were you born 2 mins before you wrote your post? It is a fact of history, present and past, that those with the money have the power. Those with the power make the rules. Those of us who have neither are plain ol *CENSORED* outta luck.

Care for an example? You think in the USA anyone can become President, right? Well, TECHNICALLY that is true. Who was the last poor person who was President? Come to think of it, I don't think there ever was. Ever meet a local mayor who isn't at least better off than most of his constituents? Ever meet a Congressperson, or Senator? Did you know that about 80% of the policy makers of this world are either: Lawyers, Oil "Barons" (Hmmm, there are a few jokes in here, but I won't use em), Dictators who came to power via revolution, and/or descendants of those who are rich and powerful who had enough brains to make their wealth grow and pass it on to their children (note: usually these fabulously wealthy people can trace their wealth back to a crook, but thats besides the point)

Face it, $$ makes the world go round, and screaming or crying about it, calling it foul, etc won't change it either. Right, wrong or indifferent, its a FACT. Those who have the money can do whatever the hell they want. How many crooks who are rich get a handslap when they do something the rest of us go to PRISON for? And I mean a REAL prison not some posh lil celebrity jail, ala Martha Stewart or the idiots from Enron.


From Same:

I was simply saying, that its wrong and immoral, and who the hell would wanna play a mud when that mud is out there dissin everything else that exists on a public website that has the calibur that Mudconnect has. With the word of mouth and everything that this website pushes out. You'd think that people would not want that kind of advertisement sitting out like that. I dunno, just my thoughts.



Hmmm...Bill Gates bashes Apple/Mac, and Linux, and Unix, etc. So how come so many people use Windows? AOL alludes to their service being better than everyone else's, so does everyone else. Face it, you're pissed off at a marketing gimmick. Want people to join your staff, or come to your place to get their cars fixed, or eat your food rather than another fast food joint? Make up a marketting ad that portrays you as better then they are.

Don't believe me? Remember all those commercials between Burger King vs McDonalds vs Wendys vs Arbys, etc? Like how Wendy's was saying they weren't just another burger joint cause they're burgers were new and different, hell they were even SQUARE! (As if the shape of the freakin thing matters to my stomach).

Now, if IRE had actually NAMED any of the muds, that would be slander, which is different than marketting. LOL

Kavir wrote:

No problem. Just call the Valheru something different, rename the Moredhel and Eledhel to 'wood elves' and 'dark elves' respectively, call the Gods something different, and you're ready to go.

Actually, 'Valheru' isn't copyright to Feist. It's Tolkien-derived. In fact, oddly, the first search that comes up on Google if you search for valheru is ValheruMud (which has nothing to do with Feist's stuff).

--matt

In regards to the ad .. while I will admit it could be
taken in the way you are taking it (perhaps you want to
look at that Matt?) - Its very much the truth in _SOME_
cases. He didn't SAY _all_ .. you assumed it was all. There
are tons of muds out there with unique content, which are
obviously very good, if numbers are any comparison.. a
good example of that is Aardwolf.

Its an ad man .. its always phrased to benefit the person
who put it there. Like I said though.. don't stand up and
accuse someone of something that wasn't actually said.

In regards to IRE being free - it is very much free, you
can play it that way as long as you like. Granted, you are
encouraged to spend money .. obviously, but you _CAN_ play
it for nothing, and still experiance a better game then
I've seen in a multitude of places.

You can call me whatever you want - I used to host IRE, and
I no longer do. That being said, I have little to gain from
defending Matt, other then alot more experiance with his
games (via in depth conversations we had, playing them, and
knowing the internals of how they work) then most people in
the mud world.

-D.

I think if "Diku" were replaced with "stock" then people would be less likely to take offense. It's semantics, yes, but I can definitely understand people taking that the wrong way.

But then again, disdain of IRE is the flavor of the month right now, so this thread could possibly be just another example of someone jumping on a bandwagon.

I understand that they're free, yadda, yadda, yadda, and more power to IRE for making money where dang near nobody else has. I give them props for that. I was simply saying that it should of been put a lil more differently. I know that great muds have come from Diku derivs, I never said I looked at is as "all". Its just a respect thing. If you look at it the way alot of people might, they're bashing Diku as a whole. But, once again, everyone looks at things differently. And no, its not a bandwagon thing either. like i'd said, I give them props for making money where most can't, and more than likely won't.

And as far as the money goes, ummmm, i've got plenty of money, so does that mean I make the rules? I do what I do for the enjoyment of others. My players do quests and other things to gain extra perks in the MUD. As they do with most muds. If a player wants a "forged" weapon from an immortal, they pay with a form of currency within the mud or tokens or win them in a quest.

Once again though, that ad really should of been thought through more than it was. People take things the wrong way all the time, and just the way its worded looks horrible.

(Comment added by Ashen24 on Tue Jun 13 1:51:23 2006)

And actually, even the non-existing customer service is a lil much. It's not even considered customer service when someone isnt buying something. How is it customer service when players aren't even customers, they're players.

Ashen24 wrote:

And actually, even the non-existing customer service is a lil much. It's not even considered customer service when someone isnt buying something. How is it customer service when players aren't even customers, they're players.

It may not be considered that way by you, but we consider all of our players customers, whether they purchase something from us or not, because as long as they're playing, they are adding value to the context via interactions with other players. Further, purely selfishly, treating all players as customers is simply easier. Very, very few of our admins are able to see purchase records for players, so they wouldn't even be able to distinguish between customers and non-customers. Trying to force them to differentiate would be more hassle than it would be worth, and I don't think it would be worth anything at all. Nobody wants to feel like a second class citizen.

--matt

Just to back up what Matt said, treating all of your players as customers really is a good way to do it. IRE isn't the first place I've seen do that. When I used to work for the USO(United Services Organization, a 100% non-profit organization that helps morale in the military. IE the guys that bring the Celebs to the military.) we called everyone a customer, yet we didn't sell anything.

While the literal definition of "customer" is someone that purchases something from you, it is often used for anyone that utilizes a service you provide(even if it's free). It's just a good way to treat people, especially if you want them to keep using your service.

> Actually, 'Valheru' isn't copyright to Feist. It's Tolkien
> -derived. In fact, oddly, the first search that comes up
> on Google if you search for valheru is ValheruMud (which
> has nothing to do with Feist's stuff).

I've no idea where ValheruMUD got its name, but I can't find any references to Tolkien using "Valheru" as a word - the closest I can find is the fact that "Val" and "Heru" are apparently Quenya words (from Tolkien) meaning "Power" and "Lord" respectively (just as "eledhel" comes from the elven "êl" meaning "star" and "edhel" meaning "elf", while the "mor" from "moredhel" means "dark").

Assuming they're not trademarked, someone could probably use the same names. Alternatively they could create something similar to Feist's setting while avoiding any direct correlations. But do both, and it would start to sound very much like fan fiction to me - not something I would personally want to risk.

Quote ADVERT:
*
'Four of the finest MUDS on the planet, FREE, now and forever.
THE IRON REALMS
Tired of the endless DIKUs and their shallow gameplay? Fed up with non-existent customer service? Come play with us and discover a higher standard of excellence. Iron Realms: When you're ready to step up and play with the professionals.'
*

Quote Hades_Kane:
*
'I think if "Diku" were replaced with "stock" then people would be less likely to take offense. It's semantics, yes, but I can definitely understand people taking that the wrong way.

But then again, disdain of IRE is the flavor of the month right now, so this thread could possibly be just another example of someone jumping on a bandwagon.'
*

There are usually reasons why there is a 'bandwagon'.

Being habitually arrogant and dodgy to the verge of unethical doesn't really endear someone to the community.

All discussion about the Feist issue aside, I found that advert rude too, and what is more, I found it even more intentionally misleading than usual.

Serious companies don't advertise their merchandise by dissing the competition and implying that every game but their own has 'shallow gameplay' and 'nonexistent customer service'. That's how that advert comes out to the reader, even if they don't say it outright.

And note how the advert says 'FREE, now and forever.'
Not 'FREE TO PLAY' - (which is the normal semantics they use to disguise the fact of their game actually being very much PAY-FOR-PERKS) - just 'FREE'.

And this isn't the first doubtful advert IRE has put up here either. Remember those ads in the past, with fake 'quotes', where various presumably important, but nonexistent, people would testify Achaea to be the greatest Mud on the web?

Heh. I really think the fact they're so defensive on the Pay-for-Perks/Free-to-Play issue is proof enough they're dodgy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not jumping on the bandwagon here, because I honestly don't give a damn what they do. If someone is idiotic enough to dump money into something that isn't all that great, then they deserve to go bankrupt.

That being said, I do have a strong dislike for their games, which I've always found to be bland. The only thing I've found to like about them is that they have so many players around, which we all know stems primarily from their advertising, not from any real merit.

I was speaking in relative terms. If you got the license, then use it. Don't keep it idle so that others can't play around with it. Thats just bogus and unheard of.

No actually it's pretty common with many things, licences, patents, scripts, screen plays etc.

Just for example, FASA closed up shop in 2001. Microsoft purchased the computer game rights to many of their games, Shadowrun being one example, and they're just now about to release a game based on it. How much longer will they sit on the other rights they purchased from other games?