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John Kerry's draft deferments. I was of draft age during Vietnam & student deferments were renewed every year, so 4 student deferments during your undergraduate years was commonplace.

Yeah I know. And 4 of Cheney's deferments were also student deferments. Cheney's last deferment was 3-A deferment for having a wife and child. Nothing unusual nor uncommon about any of it. If Cheney is a 'coward' because of his deferments [per Harkin], then it would follow logicly that Kerry is also a 'coward' [per Harkin] because of his deferments. I don't believe either is the case. Cheney has said he had 'other priorities' at the time. Apparently an unacceptable answer to Kerry who has attacked Cheney for having the same 'other priorities' that Kerry himself had at the time.

The point of posing the question is to cut through the BS and reveal the political 'spin' for just what it is.

The rest of your post illustrates that same sort of gibbering spin so I won't comment on it. ;-)


(Comment added by Tyche on Tue Sep 14 3:10:38 2004)

Of course there is the different priority thing. It's occurred to me that it is possible that some democrats believe that requesting a deferment for being the sole provider of a wife and child is cowardly and craven compared with requesting a deferment to study in Paris. The selective service boards in the 60's apparently disagreed on that point.

Just to touch on this stupid deferments snipe, who gives a rat's ass if Kerry got deferments? HE VOLUNTEERED TO SERVE HIS COUNTRY! In Vietnam, no less. If Cheney was at the same level as Kerry in terms of that whole deferment crap, then he would have volunteered as well. But he didn't. He "had other priorities."

I only hate most Christians.

Well here's a cute sing-along for you and your club.

We are the joyous Hitler Youth;
We have no need for Christian virtue.
Our leader is our savior;
The pope and rabbi shall be gone.
We shall be pagans once again.

You might have to update it to reflect the current times.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

So ... I suppose all those Christians in Nazi Germany were actively fighting to stop the Holocaust and overthrow Hitler? No? Hitler encouraged prayer in school?

You might have to update it to reflect the current times.

Trying to provoke a comparison to Bush? But seriously, it says a lot (of bad things) about the quality of your arguments as soon as you start comparing things to Nazi Germany. I believe people call this 'Godwin's Law'.

But seriously, it says a lot (of bad things) about the quality of your arguments as soon as you start comparing things to Nazi Germany.

I wasn't making an argument. It was a blatant flame. Now if you'd like to support and defend Nephos hatred of most Christians, then by all means just make a pro hatred argument and I'll oblige you with flames comparing you to a Nazi, or some other human waste product of my choosing. I won't entertain the haters of Jews or Christians with anything resembling a reasoned argument. I just spit on them.

All of your above statements are unproven. Even if true, none were done on the record, under oath, at trial. Clinton did, and that's the big difference. What Clinton lied about is immaterial, that he did so under oath made it Perjury, which as you know, is a convictable offense even for a president.

And w/ regard to Bush's service in the guard, you have nothing. Your only evidence is from forged documents that those involved have all stepped up to say were forged. SeeBS just won't admit it.

So a man and his family aren't good enough reasons to request and be approved for a deferrment? I'll remember to remind the draft board of your opinion someday when you're trying to escape serving in a war and let them know what you think of them for it. I'll also make a point of reminding Cheney's family you don't think they're important enough to get a deferrment for.

But seriously, it says a lot (of bad things) about the quality of your arguments as soon as you start comparing things to Nazi Germany.


Tell that to Terry McCollugh and the rest of the Democrats.

Two points: you lose (Godwin's Law), and how does my hatred towards most Christians make me a pagan? Apparently, you think we still live in the Dark Ages when anything non-Christian was paganism.

I already proved why I hate most Christians. Most of them are hypocrites. Most of them contribute more strife to the world than good whilst thinking that they are good Christians. As already stated, the first commandment is complete proof of this. "God" said, "Thou shalt not kill," but that doesn't stop a lot Christians from believing in the death penalty, Bush being one of those Christians. While a lot of the Bible can't even relate to modern times, so that it is easy to bend it to your agenda, there are just some things that can't be misinterpreted. Thou shalt not kill is one of those things. Some things can be misinterpreted, however, like whatever people think about abortion, stem cell research, cloning, and plenty of other controversial crap that you can't find a precise answer for in the Bible. You'll never see me argue with a Christian about these things, because, as I see it, it comes down to a personal decision on morals, and I'll never condemn a Christian for their views on things like those.

Main point being, as I said, I hate most Christians; I have a reason to do so, and that reason uses logic. Unfortunately, people like yourself like to evade my reasoning by saying, "He hates Christians! Did you hear him omggggggg he no like christians wut a doosh?!!!!11: HE LIEKS HITLEER" As already said, multiple times, lots of Christians are hypocrites, and I find it unpleasant that many of them are self-righteous, like Bush. Does that mean I could never befriend one of these people? It certainly does not. Just this aspect of their life would aggravate me, and I would hope they'd talk to me as little as possible about their religious opinions, because those opinions are generally distorted by ethnocentricity and hypocrisy.

To be more accurate, I hate the trend of hypocrisy in most believers of organized religions. That doesn't stop me from seeing completely past someone's religious beliefs, because I honestly don't care about anyone's beliefs other than my own when it comes down to the people I know in real life. However, politicians in America, in both parties, always try to project an image of morality, generally based from Christianity. And perhaps some of them really are good people. But most of them, including Bush, just aren't. Already explained myself, so I won't again.

(Comment added by nephos on Tue Sep 14 8:45:56 2004)

And to add, the Hitler Youth song is completely unrelated to this. I don't condone the genocide of an entire religion. I don't like organized religions, but I'm not going to stop anyone from believing them. I do, however, think that religion should be left out of politics. Are you suggesting that my belief in separation between church and state is somehow related to Nazism? I'm quite surprised that this would be possible, because that would mean that the founders of America were Nazis, in spirit, before Hitler.

I already proved why I hate most Christians.

Bless your sweet little dark heart.

So a man and his family aren't good enough reasons to request and be approved for a deferrment?
Well then I guess every man that had a family during the draft for Vietnam should have requested to be deferred. Oh sorry, it doesn't work that way.

I'll remember to remind the draft board of your opinion someday when you're trying to escape serving in a war and let them know what you think of them for it.
The fact that you have to result to petty threats is pretty stupid. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go fight the war in Iraq if you're so unafraid of being drafted yourself.

I'll also make a point of reminding Cheney's family you don't think they're important enough to get a deferrment for.
What makes them so important?

Unfortunately, people like yourself like to evade my reasoning by saying, "He hates Christians! Did you hear him omggggggg he no like christians wut a doosh?!!!!11: HE LIEKS HITLEER"

More spreading FUD on your part. How many Democrats have said anything about Nazi Germany at all?

Actually, like I already said (learn to read), the CBS documents are only a drop in the bucket of evidence. Furthermore, you have no conclusive proof that they are forged, just some circumstantial evidence that is easily explained, again as I have already done.

I think the most telling evidence is that not a single solitary individual can recall service with Bush during the periods in question. Not one. Rewards have been put out for anyone who can come forward to say they served with him and can back it up with some sort of evidence (service papers, photos, anything). So far, nobody has even come forward. I think that speaks volumes.


So keep attacking CBS for reporting the issue. People like me won't let you succeed in distracting Americans from Bush's record.

The docs are most definitely forged. The evidence is strongly compelling.

I'm a rabid Libertarian who is unfortunately voting for Kerry, but I make my decisions based on the evidence we do have of Bush: His current Presidential record. I don't give a damn about his National Guard service. I only care about his stellar screwups in office.

Well I agree with you about Bush's dismal record, but the documents are NOT most definitely forged. Far from it.

While there is circumstantial evidence that calls their authenticity into question, it is hardly conclusive, as there were typewriters commonly used during that time that used the exact same font (including superscripted "th"). There are also other military records released by the Pentagon using the same font. Why aren't those being disputed as well? THE FONTS ARE IDENTICAL!! I saw them myself.


All the credible experts are saying that there really is no possible way to conclusively determine one way or another as to the authenticity of the documents, specifically because they're copies. Nobody knows where the originals are, including CBS. If they had the originals, they could do a number of tests, including carbon dating on the ink and paper.


I don't know whether or not they're authentic, though I am inclined to think that they are. In any case, nobody should be saying that they're definitely authentic or definitely forgeries, because there is no way to conclusively prove one way or another without the originals. So anybody who does try to say definitely one way or another is either ignorant or a liar.

"God" said, "Thou shalt not kill,"

Actually I've been told by a few of the religious types I know that this common translation of the commandment is incorrect and that it is more accurate to say "God said, 'Thou shalt not commit murder'" which is a bit of a distinction if you carry that out to legalistic terms.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go fight the war in Iraq if you're so unafraid of being drafted yourself.

Tried to actually, back in 1990 when I went to sign up for the Air Force or Navy and both of them declared me 4F because my eyesight is so terrible. I'm registered for the draft in any case and have never requested any deferrment for any reason. They obviously aren't drafting people right now though. But if they call I'll go. I won't weasle out of it, although I'm not sure they'd really want a 270lb fat tub of white trash in the infantry.

(Comment added by Samson on Tue Sep 14 21:52:52 2004)

W/ regard to Cheney's family, nothing makes them any more important than other people who had families back then and I support that as a valid reason for anyone to request it, and get it. If I had been of age during that time I would not have expected to see sole providers for families being carted off to war when there were plenty of able bodied single men around to pick from.

And then the dilemma of choosing between following the Ten Commandments or the word of Jesus follows.

Thing is, even people with opposing opinions about this aren't always going to dodge the draft. As much as I'd hate for a draft to occur (the main reason I'm not voting for Bush, even though neither candidate has said anything about a draft), I'd definitely go if I had to. But I'd rather be back at home protesting the war.

Would you care to elaborate on this dilemma for those here who may not be quite so up on what it is you think you've found which places the two in contradiction with each oher?

Jesus preached the principles "love thy enemy" and "show the other cheek." The latter being contradictory to the idea of punishing murderers with death.

The death penalty is one of the three commandments given to Noah and is part of the covenant with all mankind. See Gen 9:6. Jesus never preached against it. You might say he invented the death penalty.

>See Gen 9:6. Jesus never preached against it. You might say he invented the death penalty.

Sure, he quickly invented it so he could be crucified =]

The death penalty is one of the three commandments given to Noah and is part of the covenant with all mankind. See Gen 9:6. Jesus never preached against it. You might say he invented the death penalty.

Moses came after Noah. Therefore the commandment "thou shalt not murder" supercedes any previous orders. That is, of course, if you base your system of beliefs on a three-thousand-year old folk story that glorifies an odd tribal sect of few members instead of the whole world, and believe that the original meaning has sustained the centuries of translation, addition and omission suiting current patriarchs.

Christianity is all about rationalization and interpretation of the teachings to suit the current situation. Jesus is all about love and peace and forgiveness -unless you want to kill someone, or discriminate someone or just don't happen to like someone. It's pathetic.

Flip-floppers.

.

(Comment added by muir on Wed Sep 15 11:52:46 2004)

The commandment to Noah is "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God has God made man," which also applies to accidents and self-inflicted wounds. It is self-perpetuating as it has no provision to protect the punisher; each succeeding person will have to bleed in a neverending cycle. Ergo, it is stupid and invalid. If one wished, one could speculate that this commandment was God's "mysterious way" of introducing the idea of compassion (your pain is my pain). That is, of course, if you believe an antiquated book probably written by the same person who invented fermentation.