Member Discussions

I have a rather delicate situation appearing on the mud that i admin. It appears that 2 players have formed a relationship that started on the mud and has continued into real life. The problem arises because one of the parties is a minor of 15 years old (oddly enough the male party). The girl is 26. They are open to talk about their relationship and the fact they intend to marry when the male player reaches the legal marrying age. They do/did talk about this on global channels and also to other players directly. The whole situation is almost rather bizarrely amusing, with rather sinister undertones.

Obviously I do not wish the game to be associated with any form of illegal activity involving a minor, and have had a look on the net to see what legal standpoint the game has (mostly to try and specify my, and the server hosters', position).

I came across this disclaimer that deals with content in chat rooms and forums:

domain_removed.COM SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY ARISING FROM ANY CONTENT POSTED BY A THIRD PARTY ON ANY BULLETIN BOARD CONTAINED IN THIS WEB SITE, INCLUDING ANY CONTENT WHICH MAY BE OFFENSIVE, PROFANE OR OBSCENE.

domain_removed.COM IS NOT UNDERTAKING TO MONITOR THE CONTENT POSTED TO THE BULLETIN BOARDS, CHAT ROOMS OR FORUMS CONTAINED ON THIS WEB SITE. HOWEVER, domain_removed.COM RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REMOVE CONTENT THAT IS DEEMED UNACCEPTABLE.

This, it appears holds more of an absolvance of blame position and goes on to state:

domain_removed.com reserves the right to seek all remedies available at law and in equity for violations of the rules and regulations set forth in this Web Site, including the right to block access from a particular Internet address to the Web Site.

This is fairly clear - basically then the game is not liable for any content, and reserves the right to ban anyone access that infringes the rules set forth. (Maybe I need some form of legal disclaimer put into the game as a help file then).

My reason for posting this in the Administrative Ethics forum rather than the Legal Issues forum is to get some feedback on whether I should be warning the parties involved that their actions are not permitted (looking after the best interests of the game and the rest of the players). I'm sure that I will be warning them, as I said, it concerns me too much not to do so - but am I following the right moral course of action? As I mentioned, I'm really looking for feedback to see if any other game admins have come across this problem, and how they have handled it - as well as any recommendations from others who may know more about my current position.

I am concerned that I am providing a medium for these guys to enagage in inappropriate comments to a minor/coercing a minor (although they could just as easily use IRC/AIM, etc). I certainly feel like I should not have any influence outside the mud on a player - but what if I feel that something illegal/morally incorrect is happening. I am based in the UK and the server and players are based in the US. Obviously I feel uncomfortable in the situation and some advice would be most welcome!

Regards and many thanks,

Klein

Addendum: I am sure there are legal precedents set out in the US to deal with this, I've not found any yet and if someone knows of a link to the documents then I'd be most grateful/

It seems fair enough to me. As long as you are allowed to change your rules, you might as well adopt a policy similar to (domainremoved).com (whatever it may be) and tell them to leave the talk of their relationship off of public channels on your mud.

Perfectly legal in England ;)

Perhaps talk to the adult, maybe you're taking things too seriously and over reacting.

Looking back at my initial post I don't think that I confirm the seriousness of this. Yes, all this has been confirmed by rl friends of the two parties involved, none of whom wish these circumstances.

I feel it would certainly be remiss of me not to at least address the situation by talking to the people involved.

Having dealt with pretty much the exact same thing on my mud... I would advise you to first pull the adult party to the side and have a nice long chat with her. Hopefully that will be enough, if not I can let you know some of the other measures that ended up being taken in my mud's situation.

Should we presume that you have in-depth knowledge of these people in real life, such as their physical locations? Depending on where they are, there's nothing illegal about this since several American states also have their legal age of consent (for sexual relations, at least, if not marriage) as low as 14, not to mention the plethora of other countries.

After reading things, I'm unclear on one rather important point:

Has this 'relationship' progressed beyond the virtual? Does this relationship include profane or vulgar language?

From the point of view of a MUD administrator, regardless of the desires of their friends, you have no ethical obligation to become involved in any way, shape or form unless you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that actual laws are being broken. I'm uncertain if talking intimately to an older woman online, and having that older woman talk intimately back to you, qualifies.

It sounds like they're clear about their intentions of legality (the 'after he's 18' stuff), so again I'd revert back to 'innocent until proven guilty' as far as what I'd feel I should 'do.'

I do agree with many of the others who responded, however, and would suggest you put in place a policy that says that neither you nor your host are responsible for communications through, nor actions resulting from communications through, your free and non-for-profit service.

Just my $.02 worth. -Z

I'm curious as to what the response would have been, if the minor was the female?

That aside, as far as I understand, it does not matter what the age of consent is where they live, but where the server is located (as far as you are concerned) -and it may well be that you are legally obligated to report them in order to avoid consequences yourself (e.g. the kid's parents find out and sue, not to mention criminal justice.)

E types at about 5 wpm atm.

Really? I've read of other age of consent ages involving chat rooms and e-mail, and the physical location of the server hosting the service was never mentioned, just the state laws for the individual(s) in question. This is not to claim that you're wrong, just saying I haven't come across it before.

It sounds like they're clear about their intentions of legality (the 'after he's 18' stuff), so again I'd revert back to 'innocent until proven guilty' as far as what I'd feel I should 'do.'

I'm not sure that vocalized intent to marry is actually illegal; since, many people have crushes on each other at young ages, and even decide to marry people then. It doesn't necessarily mean that this is followed through on, since most people won't hold you to it as if for a verbal contract. Since the male is a minor, it might be that he doesn't even have the right to "sign" such a contract on his [own] behalf, anyway. If they are both clear that this is in no way a binding contract, there shouldn't be any trouble [in America, of course {and especially California}, all bets are off].

-FireCat

Yes, I know (logs, etc) of "inappropriate comments" being made on the mud. My problem is mainly about protecting the interests of the game and players.

I agree with you in many aspects of your note, but I am not a police officer or detective and thus I feel it's not that a law needs for to be broken for me to act, it's the impact of *any* of their actions on the game and players that I (as an admin) should be addressing first and foremost.

I run very much a family-oriented mud (no cursing or inappropriate conversations on public channels) and so obviously this issue is something that isn't really appropriate in any shape or form.

I am currently getting a disclaimer drawn up so that it gets posted in the game and protects the legal position (hopefully) of the hardware and software admins.

> Should we presume that you have in-depth knowledge of these
> people in real life, such as their physical locations?

Nope, not in any way. My response was supposed to bring about two things: 1) that what they're doing, depending on their location, could be entirely legal (although, since it's on his server, he's completely within his own rights to address them about it), and 2) hoping someone would fall into my trap so that I could demonstrate my superior knowledge to them. Alas, it hasn't happened, so I conclude you're all a brainy bunch.

(Comment added by Kastagaar on Wed Sep 10 11:54:05 2003)

And besides, this is the ethics forum and not the legal forum. I see nothing wrong with the two of them having a relationship (I would have loved to have gone out with a 26-year-old when I was 15... especially since I recall my best friend at the time briefly seeing a 24-year-old and having the time of his life).

Let 'em get on with it and have some fun.

> Yes, all this has been confirmed by rl friends of the two
> parties involved, none of whom wish these circumstances.

And, pardoning my Esperanto, but what the hell is it to them?

> Really? I've read of other age of consent ages involving
> chat rooms and e-mail, and the physical location of the
> server hosting the service was never mentioned, just the
> state laws for the individual(s) in question.

Well, of course. The server is not the venue for actual physical sex, is it. It just doesn't happen in that state. However, erotic descriptions passing from elder to younger may (or may not) count as distributing pornography to a minor, so that is a potential pitfall of this situation.

I would take them both a side, and explain to them, that they need to keep it off the public channels. Like you said to protect your game play, and the other players.

As for doing anything more then that. I wouldn't touch it too much. Tho alot of the comments about how their could be leagle things involved may be true. But I've never heard of the police when they setup these 30 year old men trying to hock up with 16 (or below) girls. Turning around and arresting the chat rooms modorator for providing the medium for where it all took place.

Yes, I know (logs, etc) of "inappropriate comments" being made on the mud.

What's inappropriate about them? Is there graphically explicit sexual content [being described, since they obviously can't send images via a text-only interface ;)] which aren't "family-friendly"?

I run very much a family-oriented mud (no cursing or inappropriate conversations on public channels) and so obviously this issue is something that isn't really appropriate in any shape or form.

Or is it that some of your players find the very idea of a below-age human already falling in love, to be ethically repulsive? I'm curious as to why their conversation is "inappropriate". If they're just discussing the prospects of future marriage on the channel, and it's plain from their discussion that the male is under-age to do so at the time, that'd be an odd definition of "inappropriate".

-FireCat

(Comment added by FireCat on Wed Sep 10 16:55:19 2003)

Read "aren't" as "isn't".

Since you seem to be aware of something odd going on with a minor and your MUD seems to be a conduit for something unknown, you should ban them both as quickly as possible.

Just look at it another way: If the average parent found out their my minor daughter/son was hooking up with adults through your site, most would name you as a defendant in a lawsuit without hesitation. You might win or lose, but you'd definitely end up in court and it's ugly. Whether you think this is your responsiblity or not, it's really up to the judge/jury right? At least if you ever got accused of hosting an illegal match-making service for minors having sex with adults, at least you can retort:

"As soon as I found out something strange was going on and a minor was involved, I terminated both accounts immediately to be safe and in the interest of protecting minors."

It would make your lawyer's job ALOT easier defending you from parents screaming for blood for their own lousy job supervising their kids.

>I'm curious as to why their conversation is "inappropriate".

Because it's likely illegal. Illegal usually also means inappropriate.

E

I'm not a lawyer. However, from all I know, knowingly allowing this to happen on the server may be interpreted as 'facilitating pedophilic acts.'

E

>I am currently getting a disclaimer drawn up so that it gets posted in the game and protects the legal position (hopefully) of the hardware and software admins.

A disclaimer will not be enough if you know this is happening. Of course, I am only speaking from a 'cover-your-ass' standpoint -legally, you may have consequences, and if it comes to that, it'll probably be quite severe.

E

I uncovered this link with a search from Yahoo! It compiles the laws of several states in their specific wording.

http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/lcsstaff/research/Criminal%20Justice/SubstantialActInformation8-02.pdf

Sorry, that it's not a cool little blue thing that that says 'click me!' but I've never taken the time to learn how to imbed html in the forum. Or however that's done.

Silrathi, the king of c & p

(Comment added by Silrathi on Wed Sep 10 23:05:24 2003)

try also this link... in case the 'perp' {gotta love that word!) doesn't live in one of the states mentioned above.

http://www.tvpress.com/idn/idn5/buscyb.htm

s

Here goes my two cents.

I hate to say this and not make it sound so rude, but you should butt out of other peoples relationships. What they do is their own business, the only thing you can do as a mud admin is have them and other keep the love making off of public channels.

As for the illegality of their relationship that is entirely up to the minors parents. You can't in any way be held responsible for their actions. If the parents of the minor choose to take legal action against you, not much will come out of it, because you can't be held responsible of relationships forming on your game. Also, I'm not sure of any legal action taken upon a game for this sort of situation.

But that is just my 2 cents

Ok let's assume you have zero legal liability whatsoever. What's the absolute best thing that could come of this situation?

No lawsuit at all, but you're still running a MUD where an adult has cybersex with a minor and you know about it.

Do you really think that "talking" to the adult is an appropriate response to this? I think that is a very "people-pleaser" thing to do, but this issue is quite serious and I think you should just terminate the adult's account on principle, and terminate the kid at your discretion. Have some backbone, this is YOUR mud. What would you want someone to do if this was your kid and you were just finding out about this? In the real world, kids get into all sorts of trouble online, but that doesn't mean the parents are lousy or don't care about their kid. I'm sure they would greatly appreciate you having some interest in watching out for a minor that stumbled upon this situation.

Ok let's assume you have zero legal liability whatsoever. What's the absolute best thing that could come of this situation?

No lawsuit at all, but you're still running a MUD where an adult has cybersex with a minor and you know about it.

First, I didn't see cybersex mentioned anywhere at all. Second, the best thing that could come out of this situation is probably that they will stay in a perfectly legal, loving relationship and eventually get married. "No lawsuit" isn't a very happy ending, and that's what you were shooting for right? I'm a little worried about your mindset when you think that the best thing that could happen is lawsuit avoidance.

Do you really think that "talking" to the adult is an appropriate response to this? I think that is a very "people-pleaser" thing to do, but this issue is quite serious and I think you should just terminate the adult's account on principle, and terminate the kid at your discretion.

Riddle me this: Why is it unethical for a 26 and a 15 year old to be in a relationship? Do you honestly think that the older party always exploits the younger, that there are absolutely no cases whatsoever in which they can have a mutually fulfilling relationship?

Yui Unifex