Member Discussions

I've been in fairly heated debates about the seemingly two definitions of "roleplay".

Often times I get frustrated with certain types of players who roleplay something out 'because they can', and not so much 'because they should'.

I am a strong believer that a character should have a role, and while the player guides the character through these roles, usually the player must realize that the character should be separated from the player.

Too many times I have seen instances where 'random' occurances take place in meaningless outcomes, do not represent any character development and do not establish any sort of background for a character.


A prime example is a group of females throwing a mud party, where they simply showed off their feminine sides and basked in a pool of mud, had a 'party', and apparently were praised for their 'roleplaying'. ---I failed to see how great this event was, as all I could see, as I sat, watched in horror, and dropped my mouth at the praise, that simple emotes constituted some idea that it was 'awesome'.

I didn't see any roles being played in this case. Frankly, it upset me at how many other people viewed this as 'amazingly creative', when it was completely 'random'.

So, does 'random' constitute valid ROLEplaying? Or are many people under the impression that roleplaying does not include a "role".

I think a lot of players lack the ability to play a role outside of their own TPB view points. I have fun in playing a pure angel that takes care of orphans, and then turning around and RPing an evil demon that eats orphans for breakfast... this doesn't reflect any TPB viewpoints at all...

My beef is when others view random actions as praise-worthy, when in all actuality it often seems plain stupid.

"Just because I can" does not mean you "should" in RP.

Well there are alot of views on this.

Some people believe that you should be in character at all times, and go ot of your way to include people in RP, setting up random and pointless sessions specifically for this purpose.

The thing your talking about, in my opinion, is a disease in the RP world. The elitism unchecked RPers.

You could emote about eating a hotdog and tapping on a datapad for 20 minutes to no effect and be praised as an RP god. It's a bunch of crap.

When I DM it is quite clear that there is a seperation between RL and in game, between player, and character. Enforcing that distinction can help people see things from different views, or stay level headed in heated RP sessions. The people that RP as an extention of themselves are people who truly want to escape reality.

Time to go to work, Ill have more when I get there. :)

-Syn

"where they simply showed off their feminine sides and basked in a pool of mud, had a 'party', and apparently were praised for their 'roleplaying'."

I take it 'mud' parties (groans at horrible pun) were not an IC occurance in the mythos/storyline of the mud?

I am not a fan of pointless rp but I dislike predetermined rp almost as much. I kind of like a certain 'fly by the seat of your pants' feel to the rp...although in this case since there were no pants ;)

"TPB"

-short for?

"You could emote about eating a hotdog and tapping on a datapad for 20 minutes to no effect and be praised as an RP god"

I have had tea RP...(just normal hot tea, no cool ceremony) for two hours...TWO HOURS...gawd...just...they have a computer...surely they can afford to drink a real cup of tea instead of torturing the rest of us...

*repeated headdesking*

I would rather watch paint dry...

"When I DM it is quite clear that there is a seperation between RL and in game, between player, and character. Enforcing that distinction can help people see things from different views, or stay level headed in heated RP sessions"

My thing is to never get so caught up that having a character die would wreck me. But many people get attached and don't want to let go.

(or they balk at having to start all over and spend a year rping just to be able to remove a glove or draw a dagger, which is another problem altogether.)

Kitkat - kind of likes the melodrama and angst of a good death scene -

TPB = The Player Behind, aka OOC player, but references the player's decisions more.

"I have had tea RP...(just normal hot tea, no cool ceremony) for two hours...TWO HOURS...gawd...just...they have a computer...surely they can afford to drink a real cup of tea instead of torturing the rest of us..."

I don't mind sitting down and talking... but jeez, it should atleast develop some sort of plot, understanding of characters, or set up some sort of grander scheme.

I have seen praise amount to "He displayed wonderful emotes and descriptions of drinking a cup of coffee. Truly amazing." More or less. But come on, nothing was mentioned of any roles being played other than emotes typed.

"I don't mind sitting down and talking... but jeez, it should atleast develop some sort of plot, understanding of characters, or set up some sort of grander scheme."

That is me. Sort of. I can go with a certain amount of that kind of rp but there is always a part of me that wants it to advance the plot...a plot...any plot...

(I got very burned out playing a couple of muds that were book-based and the timeline/story advancement was very slow and very controlled. Now my tolerance level for some types of rp is very low)

"He displayed wonderful emotes and descriptions of drinking a cup of coffee. Truly amazing."

And the Oscar goes to Adeas Firedancer for his stunning portrayal of a man drinking a cup of coffee!

Kitkat - the joys of rp -

Yeah like I said that really speaks to the 'elitist' RPers.

Kind of like the people who will feint over the brilliance of a trashcan with paint thrown onto it. 'The eloquence, the passion and anger of the artist, the angst against society and it's need to be rich, it's so moving and grand!'

Pah-lease. It's a friggen trashcan with paint thrown on it. Wow.

To speak to what KitKat was talking about, the structured RP vs fly by seat RP. I was trying not to insinuate that I prefer something so structured.

Actually I go to great pains to make a very open and fluid world. The design is grand on purpose with some major plot points, there is an overall world scheme. The players, however, are not locked into specific choices or strict plot stories.

I like for a person to feel as though the world is real and large, give them the option to go save their kingdom, or say screw it and go to another nation and explore. The stories I write are purposely done to be flexible and only vaguely direct on the people who play. There are points when you might make specific plot twists that will happen regardless of player actions, though overall I like to let the players really decide where they want to take my story, and evolve it from their actions.

My best sessions are done with basic plot points, some vague instructions, and the fact's that these players know about their world. As they explore, and uncover, so does the world grow and the story evolve.

In that sense I agree completely with your statement.

As for pointless RP, well we all know a person needs to use a bathroom, eat food, take a shower, whatever. Why RP pointless scenes that have no relevance or bearing on the game? It would be one thing to RP a dinner, where current events are discussed, someone gets drunk, and someone alienates their family. That provides interesting and helpful character devices and development.

I personally refuse to reward pointless RP. Oh you can RP drinking coffee, to no end. Was there some kind of inner monologue that would help everyone see you developing a character? Some physical reprecussions? Character interactions? No. Then so what.

Pointless RP is as deserving of reward as a trashcan with paint thrown on it. Just as useful too.

-Syn

Oh, great! You had to remind why I switched to hack and slash. I'd almost forgotten...

While a certain amount of detail adds depth to a character, I'll skip over the chapter where Bruce Wayne and Alfred play pinochle all night.

I have seen praise amount to "He displayed wonderful emotes and descriptions of drinking a cup of coffee. Truly amazing." More or less. But come on, nothing was mentioned of any roles being played other than emotes typed.

Would I have got such praise if I emoted nailing the lavatory door shut just before slipping laxatives into the coffee? Probably not. Alas I have had to sit through "tea party" RP before (watching paint dry really is more exciting) but I think that having to read praise for someone's wonderful efforts of emoting having a drink would have driven me over the edge. It seems silly that so much emphasis for praise has been placed on fancy emotes that the storyline and characters' roles are ignored.

Them: "Wow, he really knows how to write a book! Gosh, it is so amazing, he deserves our utmost applauding!"

Me: "Really? That's pretty cool he can write a book.... what was in it?"

Them: "Lots of really cool descriptions! So creative in presentation! We envy him, indeed."

Me: "So, what was the book about, then?"

Them: "We just sat around and talked, but the emotes were fantastic!"

Me: "So, what happened?"

Them: "Lots of descriptions, it amazed me!"

Me: "Uhuh. I see." *runs away to slit wrists*

I enjoy randomly showing up to an RP (as an immortal character. I know some people object, but lets save a debate like that for a later time?) to add something random to it. I try to keep aware of the RP that's taking place, so as not to damage the plot, and try not to take an active role. Sometimes a monkey wrench thrown in the gears can have great results.

I think we all like to RP in an event where the plot is developed. Think of your favorite fiction book. Which parts don't attribute to anything? Even a short bit where it may seem the characters are goofing off, it still develops the character themselves.

For the record: I prefer unenforced RP. People sitting in one mud room and RPing for 4 hours makes me somewhat ill.

>So, does 'random' constitute valid ROLEplaying?

Yes.

>Or are many people under the impression
>that roleplaying does not include a "role".

Yes -- because there are different definitions of what 'role' playing even is.

>Or are many people under the impression
>that roleplaying does not include a "role".

Yes -- because there are different definitions of what 'role' playing even is.

Please give examples.

>>So, does 'random' constitute valid ROLEplaying?

>Yes.

Any reasons for this? Or just a simple one word answer is enough?


>>Or are many people under the impression
>>that roleplaying does not include a "role".

>Yes -- because there are different definitions of what 'role' >playing even is.

I thought roleplaying was playing a role. ? I'd like to know what other meanings there are.

>>So, does 'random' constitute valid ROLEplaying?

>Yes.

Any reasons for this? Or just a simple one word answer is enough?

I'm not Idealiad, but he's right: random encounters, pointless tea parties, and other silly things might be, well, pointless and random, but they're still roleplaying in that a person is acting out a role.

It's not every one's cup of tea (zing!), but plenty of people do that sort of thing. You might not think it's useful (and I certainly don't think it's useful), but that doesn't mean it's not roleplaying. 'Valid' as a way to describe roleplaying is pretty much as subjective as it gets.

It's kind of like how I don't consider race car driving to be a sport, but lots of other people do. :)

"I thought roleplaying was playing a role. ? I'd like to know what other meanings there are."

I usually just see it as being in a play where they put the sets up but lost the script before I was able to read more than a few pages. I have a basic idea what the character I am playing is like, but I have to ad-lib everything else. As for definitions, I play a character. I am not sure if that is what you mean by role or not.

Aelius - "It's not every one's cup of tea (zing!), but plenty of people do that sort of thing. You might not think it's useful (and I certainly don't think it's useful), but that doesn't mean it's not roleplaying"

*grin* I don't disagree with you. I just don't like that approach. (Okay, okay, 'don't like' is misleading. More like it makes me want to spork my eyes) Maybe if someone has a near-insane real life rping sipping that cup of tea may be calming for them...but I need a little more from the rp.

Kitkat -

D>>>So, does 'random' constitute valid ROLEplaying?

I>>Yes.

D>Any reasons for this? Or just a simple one word answer is enough?

Yes. That is considering your earlier example to be something you'd define as "random".

D>>>Or are many people under the impression
D>>>that roleplaying does not include a "role".

I>>Yes -- because there are different definitions of what 'role' >playing even is.

D>I thought roleplaying was playing a role. ? I'd like to know what other meanings there are.

Acting out a character or person. Not merely just its 'role' as in class or profession, but its actions and reactions in various situations.

A few situations:

A) 'Staying in theme"
- Degrades when "Because I should be able to" occurs.

B) 'Staying in character'
- Degrades when "Because I can" occurs.

C) 'Staying in role'
- Degrades when "Because I want to" occurs.


And note that all the I references are all about 'me' out of character.

I don't even consider myself an RP hot head either. However, as possibly the term 'elitist' coming up previously, I have ran across people who refuse to adhere to any form of 'standard' a Mud might come to agree on. People who state publicly that they will not RP with others unless they do so in a certain mechanical way, without adding in a say color to emotes, or if they don't use some sort of syntax, pronouns, whatever it might be.

I don't consider these types of players desirable, those that put their out of character restrictions, and personal beliefs of situations, before the role of their character and the actions that make the most sense to everyone else.


While random isn't necessarily 'bad', I'm talking 'random that has nothing to do with anything other than strutting a claim to be some mighty above-all RPer, because I thought of it and you didn't' attitude.

I find this especially problematic in a Mud where RP awards can occur. The ego behind the 'because I can' attitude just gives me the eeber-jeebers.

"Acting out a character or person. Not merely just its 'role' as in class or profession, but its actions and reactions in various situations." - There's a big difference between 'acting' and just doing what you want to, "because you can." I wish I had a log of something in particular that fit the scenario I'm concerned with, but due to not being impressed at all, I didn't keep any such logs ;-)

Maybe the impression is this: roleplaying is supposed to feel real, so comparing to the 'real world' I can basically do whatever I want, and in a Mud I can just describe it.. so, naturally I should do whatever I want, because a Mud allows it.

I don't even consider myself an RP hot head either. However, as possibly the term 'elitist' coming up previously, I have ran across people who refuse to adhere to any form of 'standard' a Mud might come to agree on. People who state publicly that they will not RP with others unless they do so in a certain mechanical way, without adding in a say color to emotes, or if they don't use some sort of syntax, pronouns, whatever it might be.

I don't consider these types of players desirable, those that put their out of character restrictions, and personal beliefs of situations, before the role of their character and the actions that make the most sense to everyone else.

I'm sorry, but I'm having difficulty following this. It almost reads like you are complaining about those who are objecting to playing a game in a text medium with someone who can't write clearly enough to be understood. Is that more or less correct?

Personally, I've always taken delight in treating people who stroll up and spit out lines and lines and LINES about how they're doing absolutely nothing, or are performing some boring (if florid) action my character has no reason to be interested in, exactly how they're seemingly asking to be treated. In other words, to me, they've still done nothing. If you're not being interesting or explicitly trying to interact with my little e-entity, I see absolutely no reason why I should pay attention to your vocabulary onanism, especially when I'm busy just having a lazy campfire/library day with a friend and we're in the process of telling horribly vile stories complete with hand motions. People never do figure out why I ignore them and bemoan that nobody likes their "great RP" when, in fact, the dictionary is more stimulating.

Ok first Not all roleplayers are equal. Some are better at following a situation and others at creating them. At least the ladies in the mud party tried. Praise ecourages them to try again. Maybe one day they will will be great rolepalyers, but they will never get there unless encouraged and unless they practice.

That having been said. If you were bored why was your character there. what was his or her ic motivation for hanging about? just oogling the mudcovered chicks?

Last random.. I have a random character. She might help you one day, she might eviscerate you the next. Actually she is one I rarely RP fully, unless I know everyone in the room - why because for some people roleplay is merely adhereing to a persona. In other words keeping IC but not creating any situations - other than pking others - in which to show off or develop the character.

The role concept implies there is a course of actions the character is exoected to follow and certain situations they are expected to deal with. It seems more like a play.

Example Darth Vader is a Role.
Zeta Thompson is a persona.

I find personas to be more in depth meaning if my random character had been at the Mud party she might have sat there relaxing and talking makeup or she might have pulled out her katanas and turned it into a bloodbath. Definately not a role. But not exactly a tea party either.

No one is really equal, but simply because someone does something that isn't great, meaningful, or substantial in any way doesn't mean they should be praised for anything at all.

Encouragement sure, praise, most definitely not. If you praise things that aren't right then you teach that it wont matter, and they wont ever expand or learn or change.

They also never said that their character was in th room, or present, and I suspect that as on allot of places with that kind of junk rp, it was global emotes.

Random is nice, but its easy to pretend, and isn't really possible to achieve with a brain. (Every action and reaction has a reason, chemicals, certain memories, a conscious will to ignore conventions or normalcy, a subconscious need, etc.)

The thing about Role play is that its all an imagination, its all a theoretical stage. It most certainly is a play, but an improvised one, a dance with no structure save the floor and perhaps some music. There is nothing wrong with that, and just as a persona is deep, so to can a Role. If I create a role, you dont know what that is, who they are, their history. Having a random persona also doesnt mean that you suddenly start killing everyone one day and make cookies, that would actually be pretty idiotic to do in rp..

-Syn

(Comment added by synorel on Wed May 2 11:53:38 2007)

By encourage them I meant to show them what meaningful RP is, and not the meaningless junk they are doing. :)

Random is nice, but its easy to pretend, and isn't really possible to achieve with a brain.

Having read through the original post and the replies, I chose this as an example of what I think some of the problem may be: the inability to write, and I'd assume also to read, grammatical English. If you are not able to clearly understand or express yourself in a language, you will likely find it hard to role play in that language. This isn't some sort of value judgment; after all, I could not role play in French even though I read it and can write it. I would not, however, think that French speakers were being "elitist" if they avoided my attempts to play in French.

As far as the rest... if you don't like the role play you find on a game, then either start RP you do like or go elsewhere. OOC whinging and whining is just another game and, like most OOC games, pretty annoying.

Firstly, I was not suggesting (if the environment is one in which rp points are granted) that the ladies should have gotten any. But I DO have to take into consideration that the poster may have otehr reasons to be upset that are not apparent *coughmud politicscough*, but could ONLY address what was public and as a result of personal agitation was exagerating the situation.

As for world emotes through a channel - sorry forgot about those I try not to play such engines for fear of embarassing myself. I have been accused of having a Bad Attitude some times in some places.

Why were they praised? I do not know, nor I would bet does anyone else here unless they were on that MUD at that time. Have I seen others praised for like rp. Never. Have I seen people who preformed some excellent rp ignore - certainly.

Lastly in regard to rp in general. All too many muds I have been on lately have intereting definitions of RP. they have included :

Follow the ptb story only and make sure it comes out as they wish or be accused of being OOC.

Only be IC when you feel like it, but point fingers at anyone who slips and refers to something i RL terms (example - 40 dollars for that? - Instead of 40 Ryu)

Claim Mud accepts rp but ridicule those who try to do so.

Insist everyone must rp with everyone whether it makes sense icly or not.

Then the ones I am certain we have all run into RP always = cyber. Sometimes they expect that, sometimes if you say you are an RPer the assumption is made that is what you mean.

So at the moment I am happy to see anyone attempting to rp at all.


Lastly, if anyone has any ideas of how to get some players out of the tea party mode I would be happy to hear them. I have recently run into players that give too detailed an rp. We can spend hours getting from one end of the street to the other. Any attempt by another party member to accelerate the process is slowed down. Now do not get me wrong I DO believe the more detail the better. Is Jane in front or behind or beside Tom? Is her arm linked in his? Where did the dagger in her hand come from. But a detailed description of every window they pass unless it contains a slatehring MOB ready to pounce out and bite someone's head off is not necessary. I DO understand that that is what the original poster was getting at.


Regarding teh remarks on randomness. Well again you would have to KNOW the character and why she is what she is. But my point was there IS room for randomness in RP if it is part of the persona or role.

Lastly, if anyone has any ideas of how to get some players out of the tea party mode I would be happy to hear them. I have recently run into players that give too detailed an rp. We can spend hours getting from one end of the street to the other. Any attempt by another party member to accelerate the process is slowed down. Now do not get me wrong I DO believe the more detail the better. Is Jane in front or behind or beside Tom? Is her arm linked in his? Where did the dagger in her hand come from. But a detailed description of every window they pass unless it contains a slatehring MOB ready to pounce out and bite someone's head off is not necessary. I DO understand that that is what the original poster was getting at.

I'm not sure why one would want to? If they players are enjoying an activity that would seem to me to indicate it is valid. Even in a PK mud I could see a group of people who focused more on observing the activities rather than participating in them. Maybe it is just me, but I find the idea of a group of people showing up on lawn-chairs or magic carpets to watch a war while drinking tea and perhaps holding up score-cards rather humorous.

Generally, people do what they find fun and/or rewarding in other ways. If they’re not doing the activities you wish they were it might be the other activities need adjustment. This is of course an oversimplification. It may be that it isn’t possible to make changes to attract the one group without alienating other groups.

Seems to me that the window watching example makes sense in the context of not having any obligations or timeline constraints. For me, good RP has to be rooted in the world you’re playing in. RPing window watching only makes sense when there’s no higher priorities. If you’re taking someone to a hospital it is generally much more difficult to justify window shopping on the way (though I think it could be great RP to do window-shopping while taking a captured enemy to the hospital).

Seems the main issue is that you’re playing with other individuals which have different priorities than yourself. To change the group you’d have to change the group’s priority.