Member Discussions

The context of my question here is mainly regarding DIKU derivatives.

The DIKU license states that its code may not be used to make money in any way conceivable.

As far as I understand, the general feeling that people have is that this does not disallow MUD administrators from paying builders to build zones for their non-commercial diku derivatives. Is this correct?

What I'm wondering is, has it ever been attempted, or is it even feasible, for someone to sell completed zones, as IP, to non-commercial MUDs?

It sounds strange. I know.

It seems that such a business would be difficult to coordinate.

How would a builder show a potential customer their zone without risking having it stolen. (They would have to reveal their zone before the sale could sensibly take place. Thus giving an opportunity for theft.)

As has been observed by the continued existence of Medievia, no legal action can be taking against such types of theft....

So the builder would need to be protected from this.

Also, on the other hand, what protection or guarantee would the buyer have that the zone is original, and not available and/or used somewhere else? (This would of course be demanded from the buyer.)

It looks like I've suggested something and then shot it down before waiting to hear any other opinions. But I am interested in the idea nonetheless.

So is this legal? Is is wise? Is it feasible?

P.S. -- If anyone comments on my bad grammar. I'll flog them senseless with a rabid cat.

As far as I understand, the general feeling that people have is that this does not disallow MUD administrators from paying builders to build zones for their non-commercial diku derivatives. Is this correct?

I would assume so, since paying someone doesn't make you money, quite the opposite.

As for the legality of selling the areas - you could create areas that are compatible with diku without ever using diku itself. If your not using diku, you don't have to follow the diku license.

If you were using olc on a diku mud, it could be debated quite heavily either way - I'd be tempted to take the easy way out and generate compatible areas without using the diku code, freeing you from their license.

If you create an area from scratch, then assuming it's not based on existing material (such as Star Wars or Lord of the Rings) it won't be a derivative work, and can therefore be sold.

The same is true of source code - if you write a module or snippet from scratch, so that it is clearly an independant module not derived from any existing codebase, there's no reason why it can't be sold.

The challenges involved in selling intellectual property without one party being ripped off are really a separate issue entirely. I guess the safe way would be to write up a contract with the help of a lawyer.

I think you're right. The issue that prevents me from bothering, and likely has prevented anyone else who had these inclinations as well.

The obstacles is that the price of an original high quality area, would still likely be low enough, despite all the work involved, to prevent the sale being worth the cost of involving a lawyer.

So without a lawyer, it'd be very difficult to protect yourself, whether you be the buyer or the seller.

I think it's a dead-end not worth pursuing.

Honestly, I would never buy any areas made by someone else myself as there are hundreds of areas out there that you can get for circle allready that are probably just as good as anyone selling an area.

Not saying that once in awhile a builder may come up with a good idea for an area thats not on one of the dozens of websites that have Diku/Circle areas on it but it is highly unlikely you couldn't find an area out there that is somewhat similar to it.

Considering that a good 100 room area takes at least 80 hours work even for a skilled builder, I doubt that anyone would be willing to pay enough to make the job worth while.

Most builders, including myself, build for free, for the love of the game. If I were doing it as a job, it would be a totally different matter. I can make a lot better salary per hour in my normal profession, so most likely the price someone was willing to pay wouldn't even remotely interest me.

Most people never seem to realise how much time and afterthought that gets into a high quality area. The work of builders is just grossly underrated. (Note that I talk about serious, skilled builders here, not the twinks that give the builder community a bad name with the inferior crap they produce).

Considering that a good 100 room area takes at least 80 hours work even for a skilled builder, I doubt that anyone would be willing to pay enough to make the job worth while.

Holy crap that sure is an exorbitant amount of time for someone to do such a small area.

Most builders, including myself, build for free, for the love of the game. If I were doing it as a job, it would be a totally different matter. I can make a lot better salary per hour in my normal profession, so most likely the price someone was willing to pay wouldn't even remotely interest me.

Most people never seem to realise how much time and afterthought that gets into a high quality area. The work of builders is just grossly underrated. (Note that I talk about serious, skilled builders here, not the twinks that give the builder community a bad name with the inferior crap they produce).

I would say that that is a really subjective view on the situation. I do not underrate builder's work in the least. There is allot that goes into quality areas, but so is there in any aspect of a quality game. I started out as a builder, and my best friend did also. I went into coding, and he stuck with building. I go to incredible pains to make building as fun and easy as possible. If he wants some nifty thing to be added to the builder's arsenal of tools then I try everything I can to make it a reality in the game.

I see it as a great resource, adding to what a builder can do and the abilities they are given. I know of other people who have the same mind when it comes to their builders. Ive also run into many builders who think they are Gods gift to area building, so it's something that is really hit or miss. I don't really see calling builders in general sucky, or meaningless, any more useful then people claiming they are underrated. The crap exists on both sides of the fence.

As for selling your IP in the form of an area, I could really care less. I don't see many people buying them, or there being a huge market for it.. Whatever floats your boat, provided you adhere to whatever licenses need to be upheld that is.

-Syn

>Holy crap that sure is an exorbitant amount
>of time for someone to do such a small area.

Molly wrote, "Note that I talk about serious, skilled builders here". People here have gone over this a couple of times, so it might not be too fruitful to tread the same ground again, but I think her estimate is just about spot on.

The bigger interesting question for me is not how fast builders can produce an area, though, it's if people would buy it. I don't think a one-time fee would be the way to structure it -- better to license it. Builders could then release 'updates' that would upgrade the area.

Naturally there are a couple of problems that probably make this a non-starter -- the lack of commercial text muds of course, and the maintenance nightmare for a single builder keeping track of areas distributed among many 'somewhat' differently coded muds.

Naturally there are a couple of problems that probably make this a non-starter -- the lack of commercial text muds of course, and the maintenance nightmare for a single builder keeping track of areas distributed among many 'somewhat' differently coded muds.

That's precisely the obstacle.

In addition, tn corroboration with what Molly stated above, I'd imagine that any zone worthy of being sold for a reasonable price would need to be of high enough quality that would require enough of a time commitment that said price on the zone would be far too little to justify that time put into it.

I'd have to conclude that the only reason I should continue to contribute zones is for personal enjoyment, and that is how it must stay.