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This is the first part of a 6-part series by aquthor Wes Platt. This thread is for discussions regarding the article.

http://www.mudconnect.com/articles/rp101.1.html

(Comment added by Icculus on Wed May 5 14:44:07 2004)

aquthor==author

Very well written article! While I do not play Rol(e)-playing games online, I do play them offline. I just can't shake the feeling that there is something missing when I can't look at the players that I am interacting with when playing a game.

Well written article. I agree that the culture shock for people going from roleplaying to rollplaying is nasty as hell. But it is also a real nasty culture shock for people trying to do the other way around. Since I started on Roleplaying games, I can't seem to get into Rollplaying games.

I remember receiving spam mail from this person's site, regarding the article:

t00t, the author is playing chess with himself, roll-play vs rollplay, black vs white. Unfortunately roll-play does not put up much of a fight. I don't think I'll bother watching the game evolve. The author turned roll-play into a drooling smurf, and rollplay into the white knight in shining armour.

I watched the game evolve, the author oblivious to his own foolishness. I hope he won't bore too many people on his way to checkmate, it certainly isn't going to be check-mate.

That's because roll-play is a drooling smurf, and roleplay is the white knight in shining armor. Pure roleplay is creative and akin to writing a collaborative novel. Pure roll-play is simply time. Time to learn the system, time to peform the quests, time to level up.

Gibbering morons can run through a hack and slash game. The same gibbering moron has no chance of 'achieving' anything on a roleplaying game.

Roll-playing isn't bad. There are plenty of times I feel like zoning out and running through automated dungeons of stock muds, Baldurs gate or other commercial 'roleplaying' games. It's just simple. Like skipping rocks aross a lake or poking an anthill with a stick.

I'll stick with taking a long walk through the park. Instead of entering the club of the self proclaimed roleplay knights.

I'm sure you're one of those self proclaimed super role players who have been praised stupid about your so called roleplay skills. Otherwise you wouldn't feel the subconscious urge to bash hack 'n slash games.

Truth is that 99% of the roleplay encountered is idiotic crap by uninteresting people. It's a big competition, words used for gigantic let's compare peepee size contests.

There's no creativity, it's pure literal torture reading through all that crap. Bunch of no talent artists thinking they're all that. But honestly, their roleplay eats raw ass. But it's all in the eye of the beholder, and I'm quite happy zoning out, taking a walk through the park.

Will the real roleplayers please stand up?

I understand that reading big words and complex phrases may be 'pure literal torture'. That's why the game companies make commercial graphic roleplaying games. For people like you.

There are most certainly bad roleplayers, but they try. I give props to anyone who attempts to create something new. I don't take a dump on them because I might personally prefer to zone out similar to a mental patient in the lobotomy ward. That would be rude and self absorbed.

>> words used for gigantic let's compare peepee size contests.

This never happens on rollplaying hack and slash games! No one ever uses stats or equipment to grief others or enhance their online status by being an elite sparmonkey.

>> Will the real roleplayers please stand up?

Brand stretches his legs a little before bringing them down off the hassock. Once placed on the ground he rises slowly and bows flourishing his feathered hat. Standing straight he winks towards you and with a mischevious glint in his eye mumbles a few words and disappears. A small puff of smoke is all that is left of the man who was just standing before you.

Brand

Frankly, scandum, I think it is rather hypocritical of you to complain about people bashing H&S muds, when I have yet to see you post anything positive about roleplaying games, or the people who play them. But that might just be me, trying to be logical about this.

What you don't seem to grasp is that in roleplaying MU*s, the skills of the individual roleplayers are not what is important. The scene as only as good as its weakest link. So the others help the less experienced players, and they learn. You do know what learning is, don't you scandum? Whereas H&S muds you don't even have to really deal with other people at all, except to try and pkill them if that's your thing. There is nothing wrong with those games. It just isn't for everyone. Just like not everyone falls into the same political party. As far as I've seen, the only person bashing anything in this thread so far has been you, and only you, scandum. Reap what thoust sown.

As a player of both hack-and-slash and full fledged
roleplaying muds, I find that both have serious faults. Hack-
and-slash usually lack the environmental settings and player
to player interaction found in a roleplaying game. At the same
time, a roleplaying mud lacks the gaming systems that hack-
and-slash muds typically earn their wings with. However, this
is looking at the two extremes.

Thus, the best mud is usually the one that can work in both
aspects of the systems, involving both hack-and-slash elements
as well as a suitable environment with interaction that allows
for growth outside of numeral statistics. For me, without the
hack-and-slash premise, the game feels empty and less like a
game and more like a nice chatroom. On the other side of the
coin, a pure hack-and-slash feels redundant and totally devoid
of purpose.

What you say is true, Tyu. But the problem is, it misses the point of what the true RP MU*s are about. Its about telling the story, not playing the game. That's the difference between MUSH and MUD IMHO. MUDs are games. MUSHes are stories.

I'll reply to this cause it's slightly interesting.

I'm providing counter balance for the H+S bashing, by the so called rp elites who non stop have to remind the entire world that h+s is for idiots.

Your angry reply once again proves my point, where you attempt to attack the intelligence of your average h+s-er. You see h+s-ers as farmers, and yourself as the blue blooded princess.

You seem to think there is no social interaction what so ever on these muds. Truth is you see idiotic competition with a game engine as inferior, cause you're used to idiotic competition with your fellow rp idiots.

Take a good look at Brammage, now that's a real roleplayer capable of real interaction.

As a player of both hack-and-slash and full fledged
roleplaying muds, I find that both have serious faults. Hack-
and-slash usually lack the environmental settings and player
to player interaction found in a roleplaying game. At the same
time, a roleplaying mud lacks the gaming systems that hack-
and-slash muds typically earn their wings with. However, this
is looking at the two extremes.

I've dubbed those HnS games, dwarven games, and the role-playing games, elfin games.

Dwarven games come in many varieties whether adventure questy type games, or combat games. Focus of the game itself is on achievment or score. They also can have a strong social component. Dwarves are game-players. GOPers. Dwarfs are fun for the most part.

Elfin games come in several varieties, role-play storytelling or collaborative storytelling, role-play freestyle or ad-libbed, and game-mastered play. The absence of games with goals is important. Elves play at make believe, they do not 'game'.

Thus, the best mud is usually the one that can work in both
aspects of the systems, involving both hack-and-slash elements
as well as a suitable environment with interaction that allows
for growth outside of numeral statistics. For me, without the
hack-and-slash premise, the game feels empty and less like a
game and more like a nice chatroom. On the other side of the
coin, a pure hack-and-slash feels redundant and totally devoid
of purpose.

I've dubbed this a hobbit game. Some call it an RPI, role-playing intensive, role-playing immersive, role-play versus the world or environment. These vary in the degree in which they repress dwarves and oppress elves.

I do not like hobbit games myself. The worst of these games engages in total repression of player social interaction.

A dwarf can survive in the game and will play it if the game system itself is interesting and fun. Sure they'll genuflect with a few 'prithees' and 'thous' to please the hobbits all the while whispering to fellow dwarves in the game or outside via chat programs about equipment, gold, points, hidden secrets and other dwarfen concerns. One reason why these types of games often require such authoritarian and rectally invasive measures is to root out dwarves.

For an elf, it's an abomination to be forced to roleplay with puppets for points or to be watched and judged by invisible entities (staff). It's like being asked to masturbate in front of a one-way mirror in a police station. Completely stupid and humiliating. Another feature that turns off elves is 'No trust' and the assumption that you're a dwarf. Hobbits are paranoid critters. Oddly while professing to want elves to play on their hobbit games, they actually repel elves.
No thank you.

I like both dwarven and elfin games depending on my mood. Hobbitses though are thoroughly evil critters.

'But Tyche', you innerlexuals might say, 'there JUST HAS to be four groups to correspond to Kiersey, Maslow, Brubaker, Bartle, Nimoy and Shatner quotients and categories'.

Okay sure thing. Let's call them orcs, otherwise known as griefers. They can appear in any sort game. There you go.

Remember the above are generalizations or stereotyes. Individual muds and player behavior can and will vary. The above may be unlawful in certain states. All warrantees null and void. See rules inside for details.

I remember receiving spam mail from this person's site, regarding the article:

How about going through life referring to yourself as 'the university student scandum' or 'the C programmer scandum'.

Reminds me of the Dragnet movie where Sgt. Joe Friday constantly referred to his love interest as 'the virgin Connie Swayle'.

--
The Curmudgeon Tyche

I am whatever you say I am, but I love you regardless.

--
The ever vengeful Scandum

I am playing chess against myself and an imaginary force who is my opponent

I've decided he is a silly retard while I am cool, strong, and supreme

I plan all my moves and his moves as well cackling with insane glee at my own brilliance

Victory is certain as I am crushing all his resistance with a snap of my finger

It was a tough fight but there never was any doubt inside me that I fooled myself

I am whatever you say I am, but I love you regardless.

I was poking fun of the author Wes Platt, creator of Wes Platt presents OtherSpace, a Wes Platt production. Maybe he thinks it's funny too. The point is that people sometimes take themselves far far too seriously. And you know I have a pins and balloons fetish (bubblewrap too!). But all this pales in comparision to 'The Skotos Story'. I can hardly wait for the documentary to come out.

Umm... more like this.

I do take myself very serious, and I've seriously considered writing some stuff to promote my mud. Hrm, I mean, my wonderful gaming experience. Euh, sharing my thoughts and achievements with the mudding community in the form of an article.

I've been slowly building up the persona of a disturbed intellectual, and just when about to reveal my true nature (The crazy genius Scandum). You prematurely pinned my balloon, and now iccy will never take me serious again.

Dear Tyche, your fetish does not fit in my narrow minded street of how things should be. Here, have it, you ruined 2 years of carefully planning my literal break thru. I hope you're having a blast with your libel statements.

You got me wrong, though you produced a master piece at various levels, the hobbitses need to put up more of a fight. Do not forget hobbits are cute and resilient creatures. Hobbit girls are the most sexy and sensual creatures. Hobbit boys can appreciate some good loathing after a heroic pk fight. If placed in the right contrast and environment, hobbitses are the most interesting of them all.

When it comes down to things, the elfish folk are proud, and oftenly create empty dolls in their attempt to create what they think to be rp, instead of actually roleplaying. They also do not wear the name MUD proudly, biting the hand of their creator. The hobbitses now how to lick and kiss it properly.

- I'm providing counter balance for the H+S bashing, by the so called rp elites who non stop have to remind the entire world that h+s is for idiots.

You know, nobody in this thread was bashing H&S muds at all, until you posted. And if your comment was supposed to be some kind of dig at me, then I'm sorry for not being properly wounded by your words. From my experience, the only people who call the 'so called rp elites' that, would be people like you, who, for one reason or another, seem to despise the RP MU*s.

Also, people who say that H&S MUDs are for idiots are just plain wrong. These people seriously need to get their heads out of their own rears. H&S MUDs are different than RP MU*s, it is true. That's the point. Different strokes for different folks. It is the reason why some people play SimCity, and some people play whatever the latest shoot-em-up game is. Different people have different tastes. Those who cannot understand that, and accept it, are the real idiots.

But trying to provide a counter-balance to these people by being just as arrogant, close-minded, and self-righteous does not make you, or your views, seem any better than the people you are railing against. And they don't make you seem to be any less of an idiot than they are.


-Your angry reply once again proves my point, where you attempt to attack the intelligence of your average h+s-er. You see h+s-ers as farmers, and yourself as the blue blooded princess.

Honestly, I don't know where you got the impression that I was angry. Annoyed at your constant bashing of everything that isn't H&S, yes. A bit sarcastic? Of course. But not angry. I did not attack the intelligence of the average H&Ser, and I am sorry if something I said gave you that impression. My remarks were more in relation to things you've said previously about 'rp elitists' on other threads. I am sorry for any mistaken impressions these remarks gave anyone.

I do not see H&Sers as below me, or me above them. I am nowhere near that arrogant. It is the difference between stunt men and stage actors. Both are rewarding jobs, and both are necessary in the world of entertainment. But they appeal to different people. Not every actor wants to drive a car off a cliff, and not every stuntman wants to recite Hamlet's soliloquy. This does not make either profession better or worse than the other.


-You seem to think there is no social interaction what so ever on these muds. Truth is you see idiotic competition with a game engine as inferior, cause you're used to idiotic competition with your fellow rp idiots.

No. I have tried several times to play on some of the more popular H&S sites listed here on Mudconnector. There was a good deal of socialization on the OOC channels, and even a bit ICly. However, what I came across ICly in the way of interaction always felt forced, to say the least. Like it was slowing people down from their hacking and slashing of mobs. Like I said, on H&S games, you do not have to deal with other people at all, if you don't want to. On RP MU*s, you cannot get by without it. That's no slight against H&S games. In fact, it is one of the main attractions for some people.

Truth is, you don't know anything about me, scandum. And if you did, you wouldn't go on with this crap about me thinking places with competition within a game engine are inferior. I make no secret of the fact that I prefer the MUSH/MUX setup to a RP MUD. But that is not because one is better than the other. It is because one is better /for me/ than the other. I, personally, get bored with H&S MUDs, and I, personally, don't care for RP MUDs. However, I, personally, can see why they would appeal to others.

However, the fact that you claim that I am 'used to idiotic competition' with my 'fellow rp idiots' only proves that you do not get the concept of a RP MU*. It isn't competition, it is cooperation. If the scene is enjoyable, then nobody loses, everyone wins. If the scene is not enjoyable, everyone loses.

RP MU*s are like improv acting companies. No competition, make it up as you go along, and just enjoy yourself.


-Take a good look at Brammage, now that's a real roleplayer capable of real interaction.

I'm sure he is. However, never having seen him in one of the places I play, I wouldn't know. I prefer to avoid judging people's playing by how they post on a forum not attached to a game.

Like another person who has already posted here... (though admittedly I did not read all of their posts, or all of the back and forth about roll playing rules! No role playing rules!)... I also play both. Often at the same time, too.

If anyone has seen any of my posts in search of a 'good' _MUD_ then they'll know that I absolutely do not mix roleplay with hack and slash. I do not do this for much the same reason as why the article was presented as RP101. The only way you can compare the two is with their differences. Even there though, I think the author and at least one or two people who have replied has kind of missed the mark on both types.

Roleplaying - It is not an interactive story. Whoever says this either A) Is a potential soap opera fan, if not a fan already or B) Has never read a story. Platt pretty much did well describing that much when he said 'It's sort of improvisational performance mixed with storytelling.' It is definitely not the other way around, and anyone who says otherwise is lying or has some really bizarre illusions of grandeur that they are living out through online gameplay. Amusing, but still very much wrong. The 'interaction' makes any kind of total story impossible, and that's the most attractive part about multiplayer roleplaying.


While he hit the mark with roleplaying though, he dropped it on 'rollplaying.' One of his statements in this regard, about as short and sweet as the other, sums it up "Roll-playing prizes material acquisition and scorekeeping;"

First, there is material, which is very much a factor in many roll-playing games. However, that Great Club of Bugbear Bashing has no more real value to a player on a roll-playing game than your in-character romance with the supermodel/spaceship pilot Veronica Vixenoza on Otherspace.

If it allows you kill a bigger monster faster, _then_ it's worth something. Score keeping may have been true once if MUDs were ever really competative, but any more, the roll-playing games that are developed enough to be worth playing have almost no issue with this. Now you're more likely to find places where various characters of seemingly weaker 'numbers' are more effective and therefore somehow better.

Again, the effectiveness is the part that matters. It's also the part that makes the game enjoyable.. you start out plinking a grass hopper, and before you know it you can fart and vaporize an entire area full of grasshoppers. It's an accomplishment. Whether it's equipment, stats, skills, spells, or anything else that provides it is of little difference. What makes a roll-playing game a roll-playing game is the focus on progress.


Unsurprisingly, many role-playing games incorporate these very aspects with their various sheet systems. Also unsurprisingly, it is on a much smaller scale than you will find at any roll-playing game. This is where I again agree with Platt, who said that 'roleplaying prizes player interaction and character development.' The key word in that quote is 'and'.

People like to 'grow' no matter what. I guess I found a similarity after all. Role-playing just focuses on creating a 'reality' for the characters to interact in. Roll-playing doesn't care. The 'reality' is the shocking part.

Just my own thoughts on reading the article.

Nick

Now a pure h+s mud doesn't do this ic stuff that seemingly annoyed you. I think Tyche explains it slightly in his hobbit tale.

We're discussing the article here sort of, with the ever furtile 'h+s=boring' formula used. Hence I bash.

You're not angry, that's why you wrote me a book ;)

The individualistic argument regarding h+s muds is weak, nobody in their right mind would want to play a decent h+s mud alone. Sure people likes to play by themself once in a while, like everyone prefers to be alone once in a while. Try seeing h+s's in a more 3 dimentional perspective.

>RP MU*s are like improv acting companies. No competition, make it up as you go along, and just enjoy yourself.

H+S MU*s are like improv relaxation playgrounds. No competition, just play with the toys, and just enjoy yourself.

Peace :)

The article in no way implies that hack and slash games are boring. In fact, it states that "Most MUDs are roll-playing games. That doesn't make them inherently bad. Quite a few roll-playing games are absolutely fantastic. It goes on to state that the pure roleplaying games are an acquired taste. And that's the reason I set out to try to explore the differences between the two, to help prep anyone who's been playing hack-and-slash or quest-solving games but is now considering a switch to roleplaying.

It's certainly not meant to suggest that RP is superior to hack-and-slash - that's comparing apples and oranges. I'm not going to knock a hack-and-slash game if it does what it sets out to do well.

In any event, thanks for reading the article and thanks for the feedback. And thanks to Icculus for publishing the series.

As I read all the posts on this thread a couple things occur to me.

It is true that as 'bramage' probably no one knows me since on the few RP Muds I have played I do not use that nickname. Either way it doesnt matter.

After reading the article yet again to make sure of what it said. I do not get the impression that it is a condemnation of Hack and Slash or a Support of RP. It seems more of a comment on the fact that there are two different mentalities of player and it is not easy to switch either way normally. It takes an effort to try and go from one to the other.

After reading this thread again I can see that the two camps are very much opposed to each other and that this can never be concluded. One poster pointed out that H&S and RP are apples and oranges when it comes to comparissons. So folks realize the following. RPers are not inherently supperior to H&S and H&Sers are not supperior to RP. Different forms of entertainment that attrack different people.

Personally I play on one H&S MUD and enjoy playing there. I have also played on a pure RP MUD and enjoyed it till the elitist attitudes came in and started being RP Police and deciding that someones RP was not good enough for others.

I think that is the crucial difference in the camps.

Hack and Slash MUDs attract the 'my *CENSORED* is bigger than yours' types who like to show off their great EQ. But at the same time a lot of the ones I have been on have many people who will help a newbie get to know the MUD and how to H&S and get rewards. If you arent there every day of the week it is okay.

RP Muds seem to attract the controlling type. Those who think that RP has to be done as good as they do or it is crap no matter how bad or good the person RPing is. They get mad if you do not show up on the mud to interact them. It doesnt matter if you are out with the wife on a date or happen to be lying in a hospital with a broken bone. You should have made sure you were there for RP.

Again either way it is two different types of games and should not be compared anymore than Archery and Football should be compared.