Member Discussions

I am interested if anyone has any thoughts on the benefits of more closely integrating the mud server with a website, and the ways in which this could be used.

Some game content seems like it would be better presented via the web, eg. a wiki for help files or a forum for ingame note boards. This content doesn't necessarily have to be removed from the mud, however it should be possible to present it both in game and via a website where the latter offers a better interface.

I'm aware of several muds that have a 'who' list on their website, but only a couple that have help files available outside the game (and none of those use a wiki). I don't know any muds which link their note or bulletin board system to their website.

Why don't muds have more of their content available on their websites? Am I missing something, or is it just a bad idea?

We have our helpfiles viewable on the website, but don't think I'd go for the wiki idea simply because I wouldn't want players changing the in-game helpfiles.

Why don't muds have more of their content available on their websites? Am I missing something, or is it just a bad idea?

I don't think it's a bad idea. My impression is that while competant coders who create systems for the codebase itself are already spread thin, the amount of such coders who are also knowledgable about integrating said code with a website is even less. The urge itself to even undertake such a thing is often nonpresent due to the prevailing attitude on many games of "this is already good enough".

It does sound like a rather interesting idea though, and were it done right it could be a very potent addition to any given mu*. I personally know very little where HTML and website design are concerned (although Java wouldn't be too hard to pick up again, I imagine, since it's so similar to C), but now that you've brought up the topic I may look into trying my hand at that once I get some other things out of the way.

Have you already done such a thing yourself, or are you at some point somewhere along the process? I'd be interested to hear of any links to resources that would be helpful for such a thing, and any other thoughts of yours on the matter.

Not only do I beleive mud/web integration is a great idea, I believe it's one of the next logical steps in mud evolution that really hasn't been taken advantage of as well as it should. I also beleive it would be a great boon to the community to market Muds as web based games and not just these obscure telnet things that are nearly impossible for your average gamer not well versed in arcane internet technology to access.

Most decent muds post wholists, player profiles, and forums on their websites and this is a start. On a few muds they even have web based builder's tools which I think is a huge leap forward.

I would love to be able to use web based tools to access or even just visualize aspects of the game so that if I am at work or a console from which I cannot directly telnet in I can still enjoy some aspects of the game.

Take for example those games with an overland wilderness that can dump room data into a bitmap that displays on the web (this is very cool btw, wish I knew how they did it). What if you could also show where your clanmates are on that map in realtime? Or even clan borders, or current weather conditions (If your code supported such things). Or perhaps check on the inventory of your favorite shop in New Thalos to see if they are carrying that rare sword you've been after? Maybe you could log onto your character and shuffle some equipment around or change your description from the web? Or going even further what if you could control your player run shop/city/clan from the web?

Well I've prattled on for a bit, so to more directly answer the question, the more variation in content you want to provide your players the more talent you need to have on your team. And there just aren't that many MUD dev teams that can boast the kind of talent you would need for things like that. Most find it hard enough to produce content for the main attraction to spend any time on what they see as a sideshow event.

However, I really do beleive in the inevitable greatness of a mud that can successfully market itself as a web based game- Where a player could conceivably be introduced and play an aspect of the game entirely on the web before realizing a telnet version exists- AND where both types of play are integrated into a single seamless game where telnet and web players interact (with the actions of one affecting the other). If only someone had an idea for developing such a game..........

Not only do I beleive mud/web integration is a great idea, I believe it's one of the next logical steps in mud evolution that really hasn't been taken advantage of as well as it should. I also beleive it would be a great boon to the community to market Muds as web based games and not just these obscure telnet things that are nearly impossible for your average gamer not well versed in arcane internet technology to access.

I have to agree, the era of the generic mud client is close to over and the future successful muds will be the ones who integrate many things into a web based application or propriety client.

There is a huge audience to be tapped into in the casual gamer market, Web based MMO's are one example. There are literally millions who play these simple turn based empire building games that cover every genre you can imagine.

Integration of game and website is certainly one approach that can can help to bring new people to text based games and hiding the telnet aspect of the game is certainly another worthy of doing.

Users of other game systems do not care what about what network protocol is used, why should we advertise ourselves as TELENT games, and as for marketing, Text Based Gaming is a much easier concept for someone to grasp than MUD.

The smart money is on games who can blur the lines between traditional mudding and MMO's and attract new blood to text based gaming.

...



WTF?


"I have to agree, the era of the generic mud client is close to over and the future successful muds will be the ones who integrate many things into a web based application or propriety client."

Uhh. This has already happened. It's called browser-based MMOs, which WERE derived from MUDs.

"Integration of game and website is certainly one approach that can can help to bring new people to text based games and hiding the telnet aspect of the game is certainly another worthy of doing."

Yes, I agree here. But the rest of what you say, for example:

"Users of other game systems do not care what about what network protocol is used, why should we advertise ourselves as TELENT games, and as for marketing, Text Based Gaming is a much easier concept for someone to grasp than MUD."

Umm. So basically, you want to change MUDs into MMOs?

And .. uh .. how is it a MUD now?

I don't think you change a MUD's essential nature by having it run inside a web browser window rather than a telnet window: it's still the same text game, it just says something different in the window title bar. :-)

I don't think you change a MUD's essential nature by having it run inside a web browser window rather than a telnet window: it's still the same text game, it just says something different in the window title bar. :-)

It may have more to do with upgrading the media, than changing the essential nature of MUD's.
However, if there were no intent of utilizing the new media to it's potential, then there would be less incentive.

Umm. So basically, you want to change MUDs into MMOs?

No, I'm talking about removing perceived barriers that inhibit new players from trying out text based games. Telnet and 3rd party mud clients are certainly factors that inhibit new players from trying out a game.

Obfusification of the networking protocols used and the integration of many game aspects into a web based application would go a long way to opening up new markets and advertising avenues for muds in general.

I'm slowly developing mud/website integration on the mud I work on. It's a long task, but it'll be nice when it's done.

The key is using some sort of common storage interface. Basically, most of the mud information is stored in an SQLite database, which the website can access. This means that I can just pull and use all of the information straight from that database: helpfiles, player information and profiles (even passwords for a login-protected area and so on), world information for web-based building, etc.

The possibilities are pretty extensive if you have a common storage method (in my case, SQLite). Even if you don't have (or don't want to have) such a storage solution, it's still possible, though a lot harder and more annoying.

What is Obfusification? You appear to be using as an antonym to obfuscation, but I've never hear the word before.

I understand the hesitance of MUD purists to accept a game with an extensive web based architecture as a MUD. But it doesn't do anyone any good to promote such elitist and backward thinking. There is a market for a web based MUDs- yes MUDs! MMOs and web rpgs will always lack the most important aspects that make MUDs the game of choice for many of us. MMOs kill imagination, and web rpgs cant compete on the level of instant interaction, and neither one can provide the volume of content that is possible in the text based medium. We're not talking about killing telnet, or text- just easing the transition for the casual gamer who is pwning the gaming market these days. Ignore this fact at your own peril. Evolve.

</soapbox>

OP:
"I am interested if anyone has any thoughts on the benefits of more closely integrating the mud server with a website, and the ways in which this could be used."

I dunno man. Try it.

If you don't feel like trying it, then that's
probably the same exact reason others have not.

If you do try it and it works well for you,
please come back and share the experience.

OP:
"Why don't muds have more of their content available on their websites? Am I missing something, or is it just a bad idea?"

Conservation of effort, afaik. Folks make a decision
about what is fun to do versus what is not fun but
theoretically advantageous.

Why don't *YOU* do it?


Elhamud wrote:
"No, I'm talking about removing perceived barriers that inhibit new players from trying out text based games. Telnet and 3rd party mud clients are certainly factors that inhibit new players from trying out a game."

It's really trivial to set up a web page
with a java client for your mud. You don't even
need to code it, there are a few out there ready made.
If there really is a client barrier, it's due to
laziness on the part of muds.


Mosin wrote:
"I understand the hesitance of MUD purists to accept a game with an extensive web based architecture as a MUD. "

AFAIK this isn't what OP was getting at. They wanted
some game content on the web, like help files and such.


Seems to me we're all drifting about here, talking
about what we wish the OP had asked. What they *did*
ask is a pretty straightforward preference question,
and it seems to me the answer is, pretty simply,
"because mud admins don't think it's worth the effort."

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

Crat says: Seems to me we're all drifting about here, talking about what we wish the OP had asked. What they *did* ask is a pretty straightforward preference question

I agree Crat, and I think Eldha and I provided answers to the OPs question in our original responses. However, the "straightforward preference question" (I thought at least- being that its on the advanced design forum) begged further discussion on how far the concept could be taken. This may have been better suited for a different thread altogether but I have a tendency to go off on tangents on other peoples threads rather than start my own... thats my fault, sorry.

Didn't read much of the thread, but...

although Java wouldn't be too hard to pick up again, I imagine, since it's so similar to C

You might want to take a look into php, if you're thinking of doing integration with a website. php syntax is a bridge between java, c and perl, and has aliases to nearly every common function in each language to one which behaves almost identically. That means that if you know C, you pretty much already know php. It was meant to be extraordinarily easy to pick up, and for that reason it's huge in the web development world. Java cgis are a bit old now, it seems.

That's all I have time to contribute. Oh well. Good discussion, it seems.

Best of Luck,
-Jess

You might want to take a look into php, if you're thinking of doing integration with a website. php syntax is a bridge between java, c and perl, and has aliases to nearly every common function in each language to one which behaves almost identically. That means that if you know C, you pretty much already know php. It was meant to be extraordinarily easy to pick up, and for that reason it's huge in the web development world. Java cgis are a bit old now, it seems.

Interesting. I'll be sure to look into that as well. Thanks.

Obfusification of the networking protocols used...

Muds are already well-known "obfusificators" of network protocols. ;-)

"That's all I have time to contribute. Oh well. Good discussion, it seems."

It is.

Mosin, forgive my grumpiness...just having one
of those weeks. It's pretty on-topic topic drift
we're seeing here.

I'm a fan of web integration. The lib I maintain
allows coding to be done through its built-in webserver,
so I'm definitely on board with using the web where
integration makes things convenient.

-Crat
http://lpmuds.net

I'm aware of several muds that have a 'who' list on their website, but only a couple that have help files available outside the game (and none of those use a wiki). I don't know any muds which link their note or bulletin board system to their website.

Why don't muds have more of their content available on their websites? Am I missing something, or is it just a bad idea?

There are mud servers that have been available for well over 10 years that have web interfaces to who lists,help, message boards, browsing the world, browsing the code and objects, and interactive play.

Now because it doesn't include an out-of-the-box-hack-n-slash-canned-just-like-my-old-diku game and actually requires someone with half a brain to create their own game, it just ain't used by your average fly-by-here-today-gone-tomorrow-I-wanna-runna-mud-today-fella. /sarc

But no, I don't think you are missing anything. I think it's a good idea.

Doesn't Teensy have a web server tied into it?

And that ColdC is some strong stuff.

Mosin wrote:
I would love to be able to use web based tools to access or even just visualize aspects of the game so that if I am at work or a console from which I cannot directly telnet in I can still enjoy some aspects of the game.

Around 1998 we used a VRML browser plugin (Cosmo Player) to fetch the 3D scene from our game and display it visually in a web browser. You could fly around the little island we had, and see the hut which was placed on it.

Our MUD was an LP and as was the standard for modern MUDs of that type, there was a built-in web server written in the game scripting language (LPC). This was what Cosmo Player communicated with.

We had no intention of making this a playable interface to the game. Rather it was the prototype for our game editing ideas as it is rather hard to build a full 3D world using a text-based interface. Both developing the game logic and playing the 3D world in text were immense fun however.

In any case, this fell by the wayside for unrelated reasons.

These days you can do a lot better. X3D has replaced VRML and there are X3D plugins available. Combined with AJAX, it is possible to have the X3D plugin using web browser act as a 3D display for your text game. Back in '98 AJAX wasn't a viable solution and we have to get and post via HTTP GET and POST queries.



(Comment added by donky on Thu Apr 10 21:27:43 2008)

Might have been 1999-2000. 1998 is probably a bit early going by when the Imaginary Realities article was published.